Profiling

[mariab]

Any serious criminal psychologist would link Le Grand's documented insistance on the results of using exploding devices on a human body with the Ripper mutilations. It's a “profiling“ key issue. Le Grand's other, fulfilled and documented crimes were “small potatoes“ in comparison.
The other key issues would be to research and identify what other murders Le Grand might have committed, plus to try to identify BS and Pipeman. I know, piece of cake!
As for Tumblety, even if it's not the rule, there have been other gay serial killers of women.

[Tom_Wescott]

Well, Pipeman's likely identity is Le Grand, based on the descriptions and his subsequent actions, although this does not prima facie mean he was Stride's killer. BS Man would probably have been one of Le Grand's toadies, such as John Tyrell. Le Grand claimed to have murdered someone, but I have no idea who. The thing that sucks about murderers is that they don't want to be caught, so don't leave a lot of documentary evidence around. I consider this quirk to be very historically irresponsible.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Wescott wrote:
Well, Pipeman's likely identity is Le Grand, based on the descriptions and his subsequent actions, although this does not prima facie mean he was Stride's killer.
Yes I know. (On both counts.) But all this would benefit from further investigation.
Lots of murderers leave documentary evidence around, only they don't know it.
Wescott wrote:
I consider this quirk to be very historically irresponsible.

By the by, besides John Tyrell, has anybody investigated/identified this OTHER R. Batchelor blocke mentioned in The Echo of October 18th 1888, if he was a relation of WVC private investigator James H. Batchelor (proprietor of the Lion Public House at 309 The Strand, that is, 8 doors down from where Le Grand and Co. stand in 1888)? Many apologies if this is a already researched and cleared out matter, but I'm a newbie.
EAST-END ATROCITIES – A MYSTERIOUS BLACK BAG, DAGGER FOUND
A very mysterious incident, in connection with arrest of the man at King-street Police-station, Westminster, whose apprehension was yesterday announced in The Echo, has transpired this morning. It appears that on Monday the man went into the shop of Messrs. Bellamy Bros., Railway-approach, Charing-cross, and after a brief but somewhat incoherent chat with Mr. Batchelor, the manager, he suddenly placed a black bag on the counter, and left the shop. The incident has come to the knowledge of the police authorities, but up to the present they thought it prudent to regard the affair as a secret. The bag contained a razor, a dagger (which bore more or less recent marks of blood stains), several miscellaneous but almost valueless odds and ends, together with a broken piece of looking-glass and a small piece of soap. It is regarded as somewhat suspicious that these latter articles are similar to those found on the Whitechapel victims.
MR. BATCHELOR'S STATEMENT
The shiny black bag and its contents were inspected this morning by an Echo reporter, who called at Messrs. Bellamy's in order to verify certain reports respecting their strange visitor. Mr. R. Bachelor, the manager, made the following statement:- "He was such a mysterious-looking person that I could not make him out at all, but it was not until after he left the shop that it somehow occurred to me that his mind was unhinged from some cause or other, and then the Whitechapel murders and the affair at Whitehall came across my mind. It was from reading the special edition of last night's Echo that I felt convinced the black bag was an incident worth mentioning. Well, as soon as the man came into the shop he took out a pencil and commenced to write some words which no one could read. The he straightened himself up, remarked 'You must not be surprised to hear I'm Jack the Ripper - I'm a most mysterious man' and darted out of the shop. He made use of the expression, 'I'm used to cutting people up, and can put them together again. The police are all disguised, and wherever I go I meet them.' He looked to me like a doctor or doctor's assistant, but was rather shabby." The razor and dagger found in the bag have been examined by Dr. Bond.

[Fisherman]

There you are - you leave the computer for a measly few hours, and what happens:

"Pipeman's likely identity is Le Grand" - that´s what happens!

Are we not moving a little bit too quick here? In a city of millions of people, must a middle-aged man with light brown hair that is 5 ft 11 (the man, not his hair) be Le Grand? 5 ft 11 would transcribe into approximately 180 centimeters, and that would not be all that unusual, would it?

I think we need to be a lot - a LOT! - more careful than this. Identifying Pipeman with Le Grand on basis of the few parametres offered is to move way too fast. There would have been a good deal of men who met that description, methinks.

The best,
Fisherman

[mariab]

Yes, but Fisherman, 5 ft 11 in the Victorian era was relatively rare. (Perhaps not for a Dane.)

[Fisherman]

It was indeed rare, Maria - the average height at that time was somewhere around 5 ft 6, and most men ranged inbetween 5 ft 3 and 5 ft 8. Statistics made at the time tell us that only one man out of a thousand would be taller than this, but one man out of a thousand still leaves us with a pretty hefty choice of men to go through! Thousands of them, in fact, if we are speaking of London as a whole. Fewer, of course, if we are speaking of the overcrowded East end, and fewer still if we settle for Whitechapel alone. Question is, how can we draw a line here? Of course hair colour and age limits things further, but not all the way down to a point where we can conclude that Pipeman and Le Grand were one and the same - not by far, I´m afraid, even though it is a tempting suggestion!

The best,
Fisherman

[mariab]

I know, I know, Fisherman. Still, it's both tempting and necessary to identify both BS and Pipeman. Perhaps by researching pimps who got arrested? (I'm just throwing stupid ideas around.)
I just talked to a colleague at Northwestern in Chicago, and might have found a Professor of German/Jewish Studies who might know of a Yiddish translator or might even do the translation of Der Arbeiter Fraint for Lynn Cates. Still, I need to email this Professor. Maybe on Sunday afternoon, to avoid disturbing him on his Shabbath?!

[Tom_Wescott]

WARNING: A great post follows

I think we need to be a lot - a LOT! - more careful than this. Identifying Pipeman with Le Grand on basis of the few parametres offered is to move way too fast. There would have been a good deal of men who met that description, methinks.

When I suggest Le Grand was the Ripper I'm told that a 6ft tall man would stick out due to their virtual non-existence, therefore Le Grand couldn't have been the Ripper. When I point out that a witness description fits Le Grand I'm told that 6ft tall men were crawling out of the woodwork. I can't win. But I digress...

1. Le Grand can be placed only 1 mile away from Dutfield's Yard between 15 and 30 minutes prior to the murder of Stride.

2. Pipeman and Le Grand are not only the same height, but same age and hair color.

3. Le Grand's behavior following the Stride murder can be described as strange at best, guilty at worst.

4. This is the only murder in which a man fitting Le Grand's description is offered, and the only murder scene in which Le Grand emerges and literally blocks the police at every move.

Now, given the relative scarcity of 6ft tall 35 year olds in that area within that hour, the fact that one was sighted near the victim at the time of an attack, and the only other man we can place in that area at that time who fits that description happens to be a man who describes himself as 'void of all human feeling' and has a history of abusing prostitutes, I'd say it's not going to far to suggest that Le Grand is likely Pipeman. And add to this that after the murder Le Grand risks his liberty and paid position in order to orchestrate a cover-up.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

Tom W:

" I'd say it's not going to far to suggest that Le Grand is likely Pipeman."

It´s your chin, Tom, and your reputation as a discerning researcher, so you are free to draw any conclusions you want to. It is a very interesting suggestion at any rate, and well worth the effort of further investigation. My own bid would not be "likely", it would range somewhere inbetween "possibly" and "quite possibly". Hope that´s good enough for you!

The best,
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

Considering how polar opposite our view points usually are when it comes to Stride, to see that your counterpoint is that my Le Grand/Pipeman idea is only 'quite possibly' correct feels like a small victory.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

To Wescott:
I'm with you with most of this, but what does Pipeman's and BS's same hair colour have to do with anything? Oops, sorry, you meant Pipeman's and Le Grand's hair.
And what about that L. Batchelor person? Probably a fabricated story, but the name might be significant. Perhaps another “lodger“ attempt?

Fisherman wrote:
It's your chin, Tom.
Am I wrong here, or does it look like you're preparing to punch him? Things are starting getting interesting around here, finally...

All this is fine and dandy, but I haven't yet managed to write to my Chicago boss. “Dear Boss,...“ (But I'm sure my boss wouldn't get the inference anyway.)

[Trevor Marriott]

1. Le Grand can be placed only 1 mile away from Dutfield's Yard between 15 and 30 minutes prior to the murder of Stride.

Tom Wescott

Tom
Perhaps you would be so kind as to tell me where Le Grand was supposed to be prior to the Stride murder.

You state he was at a specific location 1 mile away between 15-30 mins prior to her murder.

As you know the exact time of death cannot be ascertained the doctor arrived at 1.16am and stated death could have occurred up to 30 mins prior to that. Diemschults arrived at 1am so the time of death could have been as early as 12.45am.

The doctor also stated that she most likely bled to death from her wound. That would suggest to me her throat was cut and she was left for dead. The killer was not disturbed.

It should be noted that to walk 1 mile on average it would take approximatley 20 mins.

In the highly unlikley event he did kill stride he was certainly not the ripper as the other victims were killed by other person or persons unknown,

regards
Trevor

[caz]

French Kissin' in the USA

He thwarted the investigation with the Matthew Packer...

Er, how did he 'thwart' anything, Tom, if -- as you insist -- the investigators knew from the start that no grapes were associated with Stride's murder, and therefore Packer's account could lead them nowhere?

...we have a legitimate Ripper suspect with a history of violence against prostitutes who IN A VERY MAJOR WAY inserted himself into the investigation.

...and the only murder scene in which Le Grand emerges and literally blocks the police at every move.

One up from Hutch and Miller's Court then: "the only murder scene in which" Hutch "emerges and... etc etc". Or it might have been one up from a not-known-to-be violent Hutch had it not been for the Packer rubbish. How can you not see that the ripper would have been wasting his time inducing a non-starter of a grape story in an effort to 'thwart' the police? How were they 'blocked' when they couldn't believe a word Packer said about any grape-buying suspect?

Considering the other 'prime suspects' are either gay or garbage eaters, I'd say I'm on rather fair footing hear.

Leaving to one side the fact that you should be saying 'here', isn't that a bit like a woman saying that if the only men who had proposed to her were Liberace, Tom Wescott and O.J. Simpson, she'd settle down with O.J. because at least he was alive, straight, famous and probably worth a fair bit?

Had the police at least recognized murder as a pathological need for JtR, as soon as they found Liz Stride they would have gone on high alert. Cops everywhere. That was their best chance to catch him. He had screwed up, almost gotten caught, and still needed to kill. That was probably the highest pressure of his career. He probably made dozens of mistakes that night. But no one was there to see. If the police had been out in force, they may have caught him. They may have forced him to hunt on unfamiliar grounds, where he may have been seen. Or maybe he would have gone home. But knowing that he was likely between the ages of 25 and 35, had a history of childhood abuse, wet the bed etc. would not have caught him. But the why might have.

Excellent observations, Errata. I know of three such killers in more recent years (one of them Ted Bundy, the other two here in Croydon) who screwed up and almost got caught, but still needed to kill and did, within hours - one of the Croydon cases within an hour. The other Croydon case was solved when the killer was seen on cctv looking for a second victim along the main London Road.

I would merely change your word 'knowing' to 'presuming'.

Trevor,

Is there really any need to keep shouting at people? I'm sure Tom's not hard of hearing, even if it does seem like he is sticking his fingers in his ears over his new Big Boy with the fancy French name.

Love,

Caz
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[Trevor Marriott]

Trevor,

Is there really any need to keep shouting at people? I'm sure Tom's not hard of hearing, even if it does seem like he is sticking his fingers in his ears over his new Big Boy with the fancy French name.

Love,

Caz
X

Caz
Sometimes you have to shout at people in the hope that it triggers a reality check and brings them back to the real world. But sometimes no matter how loud you shout it never seems to work

Trevor

[caz]

Exactly Trev. You just become a little hoarse and like a weak theory you can get flogged to death and beyond.

Love,

Caz
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