Profiling

[Observer]

Very interesting and very true, Fleetwood.

Hi Ruby

You understood Fleetwood Mac's post *8 ??? To be fair I half deciphered it after reading it thirty or forty times, but the term

"worthless purveyors of bad science"

when applied to profilers was a pretty straightforward explaination to me. Mr Mac doesn't seem to be able to grasp it however.

all the best

Observer

[corey123]

Hello all,

To clear some things up, it may or may not fit Le Grand, and it may or may not have been writen by me. All I know is it may be the casebook examiner this December.

[Fisherman]

Corey:

" it may or may not fit Le Grand, and it may or may not have been writen by me"

Aha!

The best,
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

The Good Michael is absolutely correct. I say Corey's profile is fantastic because it happens to fit Le Grand to a T, and told him as much. I also let him know that anyone with a different suspect will think his profile is crap. That's called personal bias. However, it should be noted that Corey knew nothing at all about Le Grand when he prepared his profile.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

"However, it should be noted that Corey knew nothing at all about Le Grand when he prepared his profile."

Yeah, yeah; circus magicians push the same crap: "Can I please have somebody from the audience to help me ... Hello there, what´s your name then?", and then his sister walks up on stage, and whaddayouknow ...!

Seriously, Tom, it´s good to hear that you stick your chin out when it comes to Le Grand. Should be interesting to see that profile (must ´ave been a tall Danish pimp by the looks of it, Guv!), just as I´m looking forward to that book of yours. As you know, I am everything but convinced that Le Grand was Ripper material, and I fear that those who judged him so at the time it all went down would have been looking for somebody who was prepared to go to any lengths in his criminality, a devil of a man, more or less. And that, Le Grand would have been. The Ripper, though ...
By the bye, don´t look for the name Nelson if you are going hunting for your man in Danish registers. The commonest form by far of that name is Nielsen. Another example is "Battling Nelson" a Danish boxing world champion (and a hopeless drunkenbolt) from the beginning of the former century. He was named Oscar Nielsen, but somehow the Nielsens of this world seem to be anglicized into Nelsons. Happy hunting, Tom!

The best,
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

Thanks for that, Fisherman. While Le Grand is my preferred suspect, I am by no means convinced that he was Jack the Ripper, thus enjoy considering and exploring other suspects, particularly new ones. But I feel that at the present time the best case can be made against Le Grand, and it's a case that blows suspects such as Druitt, Tumblety, Bury, Levy, etc. completely out of the water.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[corey123]

Hello All,

Tom is correct in saying that I had no prior knowledge of Le Grand before writing my essay. I just started to read his essay this week.

I must add also, that the essay that might be in the Examiner this December has nothing to do with Le Grand, it was only an odd coincidence that it fits Le Grands personality. I also don't adopt Le Grand as my personaly suspect(at least not yet) so the essay is not biased(at least by external means).

I might like to add that the "profile" Tom describes is only a part of the full essay and is not the headline of it. It's part of it but the essay itself if about something different.

Hope that clears some things up.

Edit, I want to add that Tom Wescott had no hand in writing my essay, I sent it to him a while ago to read to see if it might be worth publishing and thats how he found out about it.

Yours truly

[Fisherman]

Corey, I was just kidding in my post! I of course would not imply any phony stuff involved in your profiling, and I look much forward to seeing it.

Tom, I know full well that you are not putting all your apples in just the one basket. I realize that you find Le Grand fascinating, and he is, no doubt about that. From what I´ve seen dug up about him, he deserves being ranked high up on the suspect list (although this to a significant extent depends on the fact that there are very few rational suspects about to compete for the title). I look, as I´ve said, much forward to your forthcoming further presentation of him.

I suppose that you have already realized the obvious parallel hidden in the Hillside strangler case - Bianchi and Buono ran a pimp business too, just like Le Grand did. They were extremely cruel people too, mostly Buono, just like Le Grand. On the surface of things, they seem a useful comparison, and sure enough, a man like Angelo Buono may have been very much alike Le Grand, a short fuse, a flamboyant temper, a ladies man - and a sadist.

So where lies my problem with Le Grand? Well, so far, it lies with the fact that it is not Le Grand and Buono we should compare - it is Jack and Le Grand. And Jack was NOT the kind of killer that Buono represents. Where Buono kills for the joy of inflicting pain and seeing his victims suffer, raping and tormenting them, Jack does nothing comparable at all. He kills as fast as he could, securing the silence he needs to set about what he really came for: the mutilations.

Le Grand commanded control of women. He obviously did not like them, and he may well have thought them expendable. Although I strongly suspect that he he was much more interested in what living prostitutes could do for him, than he was in killing them, it can of course not be excluded that he may have harboured a serial killer within. But if he did, then that serial killer would not have killed in the manner Jack did, if you ask me. Nor would he have chosen the type of victims that Jack chose, once again if you ask me.

Le Grand, in all probability, was convinced that he knew how women think and function - that is a trait of "honour" of every pimp. Jack, on the other hand, would have been totally confused when it came to this subject - for the third time if you ask me.
Putting it otherwise, I feel quite convinced that although I have no certainty and very little idea what Jack was, I feel quite convinced that he was NOT a pimp! Pimps typically enroll their tradeswomen by masquerading as their lovers, only to turn afffection into fear on behalf of the women later on. Can you see Jack the Ripper doing that, Tom? I can´t.

I don´t know if this makes sense to you, Tom. I know it does to me.

The best,
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Fish,

I don't know why people get hung up on this pimp thing. Le Grand was a criminal first and foremost, with probably a pretty decent trail of bodies behind him. His common law wife was a Madame and he was her enforcer. He didn't go around beating his own women, but did other prostitutes, and claimed to have committed murder. We know of him through his lesser crimes and its said that they could not get him for his worse crimes, which makes sense.

And there is absolutely no cause for comparison between Le Grand and those stupid Hillside guidos.
Personally, I can't see a suicide prevention hotline worker with medals for heroic valor being a serial killer, but I wouldn't have let Ted Bundy walk based on that alone.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Fisherman,
I agree with everything you wrote, and esp. with this:
Fisherman wrote:
Le Grand, in all probability, was convinced that he knew how women think and function - that is a trait of "honour" of every pimp. Jack, on the other hand, would have been totally confused when it came to this subject.
The one factor that bothers me a lot since it doesn't fit with Le Grand as having been the Ripper is the disembowelment.
As for Bundy, I've heard that his (recorded) sessions at the suicide prevention hotline were manipulative and inquisitive for self-gratification, not characterized by true professionalism. And I don't know about any medals.
A job at a suicide prevention hotline or a job as a nurse/hired help for the sick, the elderly, and the mentally ill runs the possibility of attracting sadists and “angels of death“, as it certainly has before, in numerous cases. There was even this guy recently (don't recall his name or location) who posed as a psychiatrist on the internet and succeeded internationally in convincing several people to commit suicide on camera in front of his eyes, until he was caught last year or whenever it was.

[Tom_Wescott]

The one factor that bothers me a lot since it doesn't fit with Le Grand as having been the Ripper is the disembowelment.

Comments like this go completely over my head. Apparently, somewhere is a massive dossier covering every element of Le Grands personality, activities, thought processes, etc., and everyone has access to it but me. The man had a friggin' weapons arsenal for Begg's sake, and knew how to use it. He wanted people dead, he tried to kill cops, he liked watching women bleed, he tried to make women explode. Out of the long list of Ripper suspects I would say he's the ONLY one we can point to with any authority and say "Yeah, I could see him disemboweling women," because in no other suspect's case is there any reason at all to suspect him of this kind of violent murder.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

By the by, the “angel of death“ suicide unabler over the internet was Dr. Melchert-Dinkel.
As for Le Grand, cutting up people lightly on the face, beating them up, and pushing them under an incoming train illustrate a VERY different MO and a very different kind of rage than the Ripper's postmortem mutilations and their “investigatory“, trophy saving nature. On the other side, Le Grand's plans of blowing up people would have provided similar results with the Ripper mutilations. So I really don't know. I NEVER said I'm not keen in considering Le Grand as a suspect for the Ripper.
Still, I'm not prepared to give up Tumblety yet, as so many have done. I'm waiting with great interest for the further results of L.J. Palmer's ongoing research.
Plus, Jacob Levy and even Joseph Barnett look good too. (And I don't care in the least if people start attacking me for mentioning Barnett along the main suspects!)

[Tom_Wescott]

Of course the acts of violence you cited are different from disemboweling, because the motives were different, but they're still quite physical acts of violence, so we're not talking wife poisoning here. And in Tumblety's case, prey tell what acts of physical violence do we have against him that so much closer to the Ripper crimes than what we see in Le Grand?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

For Tumblety we have indeed NO material evidence whatsoever of him having committed any crimes, but we have the testimony by his acquaintances about his deep hate for prostitutes and his alleged collection of female organs, IF we could manage to corroborate this convoluted story. (Which so far noone has managed to corroborate.) It still needs to be cleared out if Tumblety was followed by the Scottland Yard as a Ripper suspect or as a Fenian (or both!).
I'm not considering Chapman seriously as a candidate.
And for Le Grand, another detail that bothers me in his “profiling“ is that the prostitutes he was witnessed attacking were younger and I assume relatively attractive, not old and used up as the first 3 Ripper victims.

[The Good Michael]

"Wait a sec, Mike - aren´t you profiling Tom himself here ...?

Of course I was. American humor, you sluggard of a Swede

Mike