Profiling

[Fisherman]

Tom W:

"I don't know why people get hung up on this pimp thing."

Because he WAS a pimp, Tom - and that says something about him and his relation to women. One such thing is that he would probably have enjoyed "normal" sexual relations with these women, and that too says something about Le Grand. He would not have been a man who was confused by his own sexuality, by the looks of things. The Ripper, though, would not have been a man to whom sexuality was a casual and easily handled joy if you want my opinion.
They would have been men of very differing characters, Tom, and I think that it is completely logical that we know of Le Grand and his escapades, whereas the Ripperīs identity remains hidden to us. The answer to that difference lies in the differing characters of the two men, I should think.

As for my comparison of Le Grand and Buono, I was merely trying to point out that a pimp CAN be a serial killer, something that I myself would normally oppose against to some extent; the purposes and ways of the normal pimp makes him a very irrational serial slayer of prostitutes. As for the comparison on a more personal level inbetween Buono and Le Grand, I do think it has a few things going for it.

"Out of the long list of Ripper suspects I would say he's the ONLY one we can point to with any authority and say "Yeah, I could see him disemboweling women," because in no other suspect's case is there any reason at all to suspect him of this kind of violent murder."

"We" cannot see him disemboweling women, Tom - you can. And there is no reason at all to suspect Le Grand of that particular kind of violent murder either, Iīm afraid! In fact, as far as I recall, there is no proof for Le Grand ever murdering anybody at all. And much as I have very little trouble believing that he actually may have killed, I feel equally certain that he may well have bragged about such a thing to put fear into people and to heighten his own self-esteem. That too, actually, may well have been another detail that told him apart of the Ripper.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Maria writes:

"As for Bundy, I've heard that his (recorded) sessions at the suicide prevention hotline were manipulative and inquisitive for self-gratification"

One more thing that applies here is that Bundy was a sociopath. And sociopaths are quick to pick up on how other people perceive moral. They cry when other people cry, they mourn when they are supposed to - but they do it in imitation and not as an act of true sorrow. Inside, they feel nothing at all that relates to moral. If such a person realizes that he could gain respect and sympathy by working with suicide prevention hotlines, he will do it - but not to help anybody but himself.

"The one factor that bothers me a lot since it doesn't fit with Le Grand as having been the Ripper is the disembowelment. "

Technically, he may have been able to do it. Morally, he may have been able to do it. If he saw gain in it, he may have been able to do it. But a disembowelment ā la Le Grand would have been a different crime altogether than Jacks deeds whichever way we look upon it.

The best,
Fisherman

[mariab]

I agree with everything you say, Fisherman, and I have the exact same “gut feeling“ as you pertaining to Le Grand's crimes vs. the Ripper murders, as in their coming from a different frame of (sick) mind. On the other side, I wouldn't totally refuse to consider that Le Grand would disembowel someone post mortem. His threat-letters to the ladies he was proposing to explode contain graphic descriptions about what would happen to their body after his devices exploded, so Le Grand definitely had thoughts about such, and we have proof that he experienced delight while thinking about mutilated bodies. Le Grand was clearly a sociopiath, only he didn't keep a low profile in his aspirations to intimidate others, which ended up in his demise, as he wasn't able to fool the police for very long, and eventually he got arrested. Also, IF Schwartz's testimony about BS and Pipeman is truthful, we might have evidence that the Ripper attacks fitted with Le Grand's MO, and that they were not the furtive blitz-attacks that most people imagine.
About Bundy working for the suicide prevention hotline, it clearly wasn't just for cover, as there was certainly voyeurism and latent sadism there.
As for Buono/Bianchi, I too see parallels, both with Le Grand and with the Ripper murders (as in the prominent display of the bodies).
As for profiling Wescott, did anyone notice what he typed when he wrote to me? “Prey tell what acts of physical violence“ –“Prey“, not “pray“! Is that the mother of all Freudian slips, or what?! He evidently sees me as “prey“! To the bin with him, I'd say, and throw away the key! Hey Wescott, your days walking around unbound are counted! We're already on to you, and the “writer/researcher“ cover doesn't do it anymore!

[Fisherman]

"To the bin with him, I'd say, and throw away the key!"

Iīd like to see that book of his first, Maria. It promises to be a damn good read!

The best,
Fisherman

[mariab]

Oh, he can totally write his book from lockup. Nelson Mandela wrote his first book (by hand) when imprisoned on Robben Island, and he even managed to get the manuscript smuggled to London (under some released inmate's shirt) to get published while he was still imprisoned. I don't know why Wescott should require more discriminating circumstances than Mandela, esp. since he claims he has no ego, and he compared himself to Budha.
(Mandela even had to use a bucket as a shower and bathroom for 18 years, until they installed plumbing on Robben Island. I tried to attach a photo of his cell here, but it's too big Bytes-wise, both as jpg and pdf. But, to be honest, I've never seen a more cutesy prison cell in my entire life: The bucket is bright red, the tiny little desk is deep green, and the blanket has lions embroided on it! The only thing missing is a stuffed animal.)

[Fisherman]

Well ... long as I get to read the book ...

The best,
Fisherman

[mariab]

Let him write it first. I'm home-bound today, needing to complete a French article for publication which misses at least another dozen pages, and just looking at my own prose makes me want to p*ke. (Even the best parts in the text don't manage to improve my mood.)
As for the Mandela manuscript, I always wondered, when that other inmate smuggled the manuscript under his shirt, and very possibly sweated through it, the editors in London might have encountered some diffuculty deciphering the text...! Lazy thoughts, while I feel SOOO compelled to procrastinate, but that darn article needs to be done – eventually. (“Eventually“ is good, as it's not the same as “right now“!)

[Abby Normal]

Corey, I was just kidding in my post! I of course would not imply any phony stuff involved in your profiling, and I look much forward to seeing it.

Tom, I know full well that you are not putting all your apples in just the one basket. I realize that you find Le Grand fascinating, and he is, no doubt about that. From what Iīve seen dug up about him, he deserves being ranked high up on the suspect list (although this to a significant extent depends on the fact that there are very few rational suspects about to compete for the title). I look, as Iīve said, much forward to your forthcoming further presentation of him.

I suppose that you have already realized the obvious parallel hidden in the Hillside strangler case - Bianchi and Buono ran a pimp business too, just like Le Grand did. They were extremely cruel people too, mostly Buono, just like Le Grand. On the surface of things, they seem a useful comparison, and sure enough, a man like Angelo Buono may have been very much alike Le Grand, a short fuse, a flamboyant temper, a ladies man - and a sadist.

So where lies my problem with Le Grand? Well, so far, it lies with the fact that it is not Le Grand and Buono we should compare - it is Jack and Le Grand. And Jack was NOT the kind of killer that Buono represents. Where Buono kills for the joy of inflicting pain and seeing his victims suffer, raping and tormenting them, Jack does nothing comparable at all. He kills as fast as he could, securing the silence he needs to set about what he really came for: the mutilations.

Le Grand commanded control of women. He obviously did not like them, and he may well have thought them expendable. Although I strongly suspect that he he was much more interested in what living prostitutes could do for him, than he was in killing them, it can of course not be excluded that he may have harboured a serial killer within. But if he did, then that serial killer would not have killed in the manner Jack did, if you ask me. Nor would he have chosen the type of victims that Jack chose, once again if you ask me.

Le Grand, in all probability, was convinced that he knew how women think and function - that is a trait of "honour" of every pimp. Jack, on the other hand, would have been totally confused when it came to this subject - for the third time if you ask me.
Putting it otherwise, I feel quite convinced that although I have no certainty and very little idea what Jack was, I feel quite convinced that he was NOT a pimp! Pimps typically enroll their tradeswomen by masquerading as their lovers, only to turn afffection into fear on behalf of the women later on. Can you see Jack the Ripper doing that, Tom? I canīt.

I donīt know if this makes sense to you, Tom. I know it does to me.

The best,
Fisherman

Hi Fish

Le Grand, in all probability, was convinced that he knew how women think and function - that is a trait of "honour" of every pimp. Jack, on the other hand, would have been totally confused when it came to this subject

I totally disagree with this. JtR was able to convince women to accompany him into dark alleys at the height of the scare which would IMHO mean he was good at gaining their confidence and trust. Therefore would know what women think and what they want to hear. Alot of the witness statements also makes me beleive that he was a bit of a smooth talker and had a way with words, a good rap, as we used to say, with the ladies.

[Abby Normal]

Comments like this go completely over my head. Apparently, somewhere is a massive dossier covering every element of Le Grands personality, activities, thought processes, etc., and everyone has access to it but me. The man had a friggin' weapons arsenal for Begg's sake, and knew how to use it. He wanted people dead, he tried to kill cops, he liked watching women bleed, he tried to make women explode. Out of the long list of Ripper suspects I would say he's the ONLY one we can point to with any authority and say "Yeah, I could see him disemboweling women," because in no other suspect's case is there any reason at all to suspect him of this kind of violent murder.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom
I think when looking at possible suspects, it is important to see what they are capable of in terms of past crimes and history of violence. In these terms Grand is definitely capable in my view of murdering women and therefore(along with the other factors) make him a viable suspect.

Out of the long list of Ripper suspects I would say he's the ONLY one we can point to with any authority and say "Yeah, I could see him disemboweling women," because in no other suspect's case is there any reason at all to suspect him of this kind of violent murder.

I disagree with this, because 2 suspects, James Kelly and W. Bury, both were KNOWN murderers of women via knife and Bury even has abdominal stabbing on his resume.

[Fisherman]

Abby Normal:

"I totally disagree with this. JtR was able to convince women to accompany him into dark alleys at the height of the scare which would IMHO mean he was good at gaining their confidence and trust."

To begin with, we do not know, Abby, whether Jack took the initiative - or whether the women he killed did that. Therefore we know nothing about his ability to convince or to gain trust, just as we do not know that he had a way with words. So I think you may be working from a desired scenario on your behalf more than from a confirmed one.

Whichever way, I think a very fair case can be made for Jack being, shall we say, out of the normal when it came to matters of sexuality. Having an urge to cut up womenīs bellies and rummaging about inside them, looking for keepthings, would not translate into being a ladies man in that particular department, something I believe you would agree with. And that is what I am talking about when I am saying that Le Grand would have been a man that sexually ensnared women, the way pimps do, whereas Jack would probably not have as uncomplicated a relationship with sex.
You will notice that such a thing does not mean that he could not have been a smoothtalking success - itīs just that we cannot possibly know whether he was or not - but when it came to actual sexuality, he would have been something very much else than the regular punter.

The best,
Fisherman

[Abby Normal]

Abby Normal:

"I totally disagree with this. JtR was able to convince women to accompany him into dark alleys at the height of the scare which would IMHO mean he was good at gaining their confidence and trust."

To begin with, we do not know, Abby, whether Jack took the initiative - or whether the women he killed did that. Therefore we know nothing about his ability to convince or to gain trust, just as we do not know that he had a way with words. So I think you may be working from a desired scenario on your behalf more than from a confirmed one.

Whichever way, I think a very fair case can be made for Jack being, shall we say, out of the normal when it came to matters of sexuality. Having an urge to cut up womenīs bellies and rummaging about inside them, looking for keepthings, would not translate into being a ladies man in that particular department, something I believe you would agree with. And that is what I am talking about when I am saying that Le Grand would have been a man that sexually ensnared women, the way pimps do, whereas Jack would probably not have as uncomplicated a relationship with sex.
You will notice that such a thing does not mean that he could not have been a smoothtalking success - itīs just that we cannot possibly know whether he was or not - but when it came to actual sexuality, he would have been something very much else than the regular punter.

The best,
Fisherman

Hi Fish
Thanks for the response.

To begin with, we do not know, Abby, whether Jack took the initiative - or whether the women he killed did that

I think it is more likely than not that a serial killer with an urge to do nasty things to women would take the initiative-honestly don't you think Fish?
Also, the quickness with which he procured Eddowes after Stride points to him taking the initiative in my opinion.

Therefore we know nothing about his ability to convince or to gain trust, just as we do not know that he had a way with words.

Again, many witness statements, show that he did (regardless of if he initiated or not).

I think a very fair case can be made for Jack being, shall we say, out of the normal when it came to matters of sexuality.

Totally agree with you here. In terms of the actual act of sex/intercourse i beleive he probably had major issues!

[Tom_Wescott]

"We" cannot see him disemboweling women, Tom - you can.

Yeah, me and the people who knew him personally, and investigators who thought he was the Ripper.

I agree with everything you say, Fisherman, and I have the exact same “gut feeling“ as you pertaining to Le Grand's crimes vs. the Ripper murders, as in their coming from a different frame of (sick) mind. On the other side, I wouldn't totally refuse to consider that Le Grand would disembowel someone post mortem.

In which case you don't agree with everything Fisherman says, because the Ripper victims were indeed disemboweled post mortem.

I disagree with this, because 2 suspects, James Kelly and W. Bury, both were KNOWN murderers of women via knife and Bury even has abdominal stabbing on his resume.

I hear what you're saying, but I don't think violence against ones wife is quite the same. And of course you're correct in that the Ripper approached or allowed himself to be approached by prostitutes, and subsequently took control of them. So this is not someone afraid of women. To say otherwise, as Maria and Fisherman are doing, is rather absurd.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Abby Normal]

Hi Tom

I hear what you're saying, but I don't think violence against ones wife is quite the same

I have thought about this and it begs the question-How many known serial killers of women (other than their wife) also murdered their wife?

[Tom_Wescott]

None I can think of. But then, I've seen nothing in the cases of Bury and Kelly to suggest they should be given serious consideration as Ripper suspects.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Ben]

Hi Abby,

How many known serial killers of women (other than their wife) also murdered their wife?

Reg Christie springs to mind, for one.