Grave Spitting

[Stephen Thomas]

When was Millers Court pulled down, because John DeChauncey told me it was one of those that survived the war?

Who on earth is John DeChauncy?

[DanaeChantel]

Thanks Lynn. wow! 6' 7", now that is one big dude. Especially for 1888. People were much smaller in stature back in those days. He was crazy too huh? Hmmmm . . .maybe he was at the funeral and he was the one that spit on Mary's grave.

[Bob Hinton]

Spitting is so unhygenic, still I suppose if it's on a grave the occupant is passed that point.

[richardnunweek]

Hi all,
lets look at the known facts..
A] There were two carriages, containing eight mourners, six women, and two men, one of the males being joseph Barnett, the other unknown.
B] Only visitors that were in St Patricks when the poccession arrived could remain in the cemetary, all other that had gathered at the gates were kept out.
C] A sketch was made of the service, [ can be viewed on Casebook] clearly dipicting six women and two men, and a pile of boards close at hand.
D] Only after the small service was over and the mourning party had left the area, and only after the grave was filled, and the flowers mounted, was the gates opened to the public to file past the grave.
The above are all recorded facts.
Here is Farsons account...
He recalls the letter he received [ amongst many others] as mentioning that the mother of the sender when a teenager along with a friend was visiting a grave at the cemetary when the service happened.
She noticed that one man remained behind after the others retired, and believing nobody was close by . parted the boards with his foot and spat down on the coffin several times.
The girls were terrified, and remained silent, at least to the media, until the daughter wrote in to Associated Redifusion in 1959.. hense this story.
Was it true?
What are the implications?
Who was the other man..[ we know one was J Barnett]
Looking at the sketch what do we see?
In the sketch where was the priest?
In one account of the service the priest Father Colomban was described as a 'Giant of a man' was he?
Ask yourself one question.
Who would be the most likely of the male mourners to stay behind after the service for a few moments.?
Regards Richard.

[DanaeChantel]

ok, I am looking at the picture as I am writing. There are six women and two men. There is the open grave, and a pile of boards at the side. There is a large man in the front right next to the grave with a smaller man behind him. The larger man looks to be leaning forward. I do not a see a priest anywhere in the picture. Wouldn't he be wearing the robes of a priest? I don't see him. This isn't a very clear picture, and the women in the picture look like they are dressed very formal and even have bustles. How can they afford to dress this way?

I don't have an answer. I can only assume Joe stayed behind and spat on the grave. He was angry I guess. She was gone and he loved her.

Or the unknown man spat on the grave. As he was unknown, he could have been anyone. Maybe he felt inconvenienced at having to attend a whore's funeral. I'm sorry, I'm rambling. I've had a long day.

Lets go dig Mary up and ask her what she thinks.

[Lurker]

The Compleat GraveSpitting 1

Herewith my selected jottings from previous discussions of the subject, intended as an aide mémoire for all and basic information for the newbies.
(More to follow.)
Enjoy!

Author: Warwick Parminter
Tuesday, 09 July 2002 - 02:56 pm
To Leanne and Brenda,
Leanne, you're right, not in Paley's book. But I know I've read of it in a book I have,--- I eventually found it in Tom Cullen's "Autumn of Terror", thanks for saying

Brenda,
sorry to give out with wrong information.
In the "Autumn of Terror" this little episode goes,-- The sight of the coffin affected the crowd greatly, according to the "Advertiser". Round the open car in which it was placed men and women struggled desperately to get to touch the coffin. Women with faces streaming with tears cried out, "God forgive her", and every man's head was bared in token of sympathy.
The hearse was followed to St Patrick's Cemetery at Leytonstone by two mourners coaches, one containing Joseph Barnett, the Billingsgate fishmonger, looking dignified in unaccustomed blue serge. In the other coach were the Widow Cox, Maria Harvey and three other women all of whom had been fortifying themselves for the journey at a public house close to the church-gate

The Kelly murder gave rise to apocryphal stories, a number of which were gathered by Daniel Farson, popular T.V.compere and televised in Nov 1959. One of these legends concerns the funeral itself and was told by a cockney type. "My mother, he said, was at the cemetery that afternoon visiting another grave. When all the mourners had left, she and her friend noticed one man who had stayed behind. After some time, believing himself to be alone, he parted the boards above the grave and spat down on it.
Another of Mr Farson's guests was a Mrs Little, who claimed that her mother had moved into No 13 Millers Court after the murder. "There was a picture of the Crucifixion on the wall, she related, and behind it was a BLOODY IMPRINT of a HAND! . No matter how many times it was painted over it always showed through!!.
Many smartly dressed gentlemen used to visit the house to see it.
Hope that was of interest to you Brenda,
All the Best, Rick.


Chris Phillips
February 28, 2003
The story is recounted thus in Farson's "Jack the Ripper" (p. 53 in the 1973 paperback edition):
I heard of a curious incident which took place in the cemetery that afternoon. The mother of the person who wrote to me was visiting another grave. After the mourners for Kelly had gone, she and her friend noticed that one man stayed behind and after some time, believing himself to be alone, he parted the boards above the grave and spat down on it while the terrified women hid behind their tombstone.


Richard Brian Nunweek
Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003
Hi everyone,
As I was the person who first mentioned this episode, on the casebook a couple of years back,I would like to add my pennys worth.
The letter Dan Farson received, came after his TV programme Farsons Guide to the British' when after including in the series two half hour specials on 'Jack' he appealed for imformation relating to the case to be sent to him. He received a sackful of replys as one would expect, the vast majority were junk mail, It was my Granny etc..
But the letter refered to was eyecatching because, it was from an elderly lady , refering to an episode in her dead mothers early life, if one takes the view that 99.9 per cent of decent people would not make a reference about their dead mother, if it was not the truth.then I would tend to believe that this occurence happened.
As Leanne has stated,the fact that only two male people were present at the actual service, is a actual fact, there are sketchings that show that clearly , one being the oversized priest , the other J.Barnett, the onlookers were not allowed into the area until the grave was mounted, only people tending graves in the cemetary at the time, were in the vacinity.
As the letter to Farson ,clearly states, one man parted the boards and spat several times on the grave, therefore the priest is eliminated, although some wise comments have appeared on the message boards saying otherwise. If this event happened then Joseph Barnett, was the culprit, and I would say that this would be the most damming peice of evidence against him , most certainly if the police were aware of such an incident taking place, then Barnett would have had a lot of explaining to do.
But of course it never came to light until 1959, and I doubt if it was ever mentioned outside family circles before that.
surely even users of the boards who reject Barnett as a suspect , must agree that a case against his innocence is present.
There are very few clues available to us ripper folk , and I for one do not reject important clues , on the bases of 'its only hearsay'
regards Richard.


Chris Scott
February 03, 2004
Here is an account of the funeral that may of interest re this thread
Chris

Barking and East Ham Advertiser (UK)
24 November 1888

THE WHITECHAPEL MURDER

The remains of Mary Janet Kelly, who was murdered on the 9th of November, in Miller's-Court, Dorset-street, Spitalfields, have been interred in the Roman Catholic Cemetery at Leytonstone. The body was enclosed in a polished elm and oak coffin, with metal mounts. On the coffin plate was engraved: "Marie Jeanette Kelly, died 9th Nov., 1888, aged 25 years." Upon the coffin were two crowns of artificial flowers and a cross made up of heartsease. The coffin was carried in an open car drawn by two horses, and two coaches followed, from the Shoreditch Mortuary. An enormous crowd of people assembled at an early hour, completely blocking the thoroughfare, and a large number of police were engaged in keeping order. As the coffin appeared, borne on the shoulders of four men, at the principal gate of the church, the crowd was greatly moved. Round the open car in which it was to be placed men and women struggled desperately to touch the coffin. Women with faces streaming with tears cried out "God forgive her!" and every man's head was bared. The site was quite remarkable, and the emotion natural and unconstrained. Two mourning coaches followed, one containing three, and the other five persons. Joe Barnett was amongst them, with someone from M'Carthy's, the landlord; and the others were women who had given evidence at the inquest. After a tremendous struggle, the car, with the coffin fully exposed to view, set out at a very slow pace, all the crowd appearing to move off simultaneously in attendance. The traffic was blocked, and the constables had great difficulty in obtaining free passage for the small procession through the mass of carts and vans and tramcars which blocked the road. The distance from Shoreditch Church to the Cemetery at Leytonstone by road is about six miles, and the route traversed was, Hackney-road, Cambridge Heath, Whitechapel-road, and Stratford. The appearance of the roadway throughout the whole journey was remarkable, owing to the hundreds of men and women who escorted the coffin on each side, and who had to keep up a sharp trot in many places. But the crowd rapidly thinned away when, getting into the suburbs, the car and coaches broke into a trot. The cemetery was reached at two o'clock. The Rev. Father Columban, with two acolytes, and a cross-bearer, met the body at the door of the little chapel at St. Patrick, and the coffin was carried at once to a grave in the north-eastern corner. Barnett and the poor women who had accompanied the funeral knelt on the clay by the side of the grave, while the service was read. The coffin was incensed, lowered, and then sprinkled with holy water, and the simple ceremony ended. The floral ornaments were afterwards raised to be placed upon the grave, and the filling-up was completed in a few moments, and was watched by a small crowd of people. There was a very large concourse of people outside the gates, who were refused admission until after the funeral was over.

[Lurker]

The Compleat GraveSpitting2

As promised, here comes the second tranche of the collective wisdom.

Leanne Perry
February 04, 2004
Here's a sketch taken at Mary Jane Kelly's funeral, showing six women, Joseph Barnett and the father Columban. It appears in Bruce Paley's book 'Jack the Ripper, The Simple Truth':





Richard Nunweek
3 11 2008

The episode came to light after a Associated Redifussion programme aired in 1959, which went under the heading 'Farsons guide to the British' concentrated two of its episodes on 'Jack the Ripper'.
After one of these, the late Dan Farson the presenter asked for members of the public to write in, if they believed they could help solve this fascinating victorian mystery, and as you can imagine, many people took him up on the offer, several sack fulls in fact.
One of these letters caught Farsons eye, and it came from a elderly lady who said her mother [ long dead] had told her that when she was a teenager , her and a friend were visiting a friends grave in Leytonstone cemetary , and during their visit, the funeral of Mary Jane Kelly aka Davis took place.
After the service had finished the girls noticed one of the mourners a man stayed behind , and when he considered that he was alone, parted the boards that then covered the grave with his feet, and spat several times in the hole apparently on the coffin.
Farsons informant then proceeded to say that her mother and her friend were so afraid by such a episode , that they decided to say nothing for fear of of the man seeking them out.
Farson and the TV company were considering doing a programme discussing that alleged event, but apparently that letter went missing along with a lot of others [careless secretary] and that idea was shelved.
Most of Casebook call this pure second hand rubbish, just plain oral history, however I do not.
To put all the case in one post is a long job, however remember this.
According to a sketch made at the graveside depicting the service, eight people were present, six women, and two men.
This was accurate, as that was the official mourning party that left Whitechapel in two coaches.
We know Joseph Barnett was one of the men, but the other is not identified , the sketch does not show a priest in his attire so one can assume that the other male was a close friend or relative.
So in a nutshell if the alleged grave spitting took place, and was carried out by a male... who would be chief suspect?
Was the spitting a token of love, that some have concluded, or pure hate?
Best Regards
Richard.




Grave-Spitting & Other Tall Tales
By Don Souden
This article originally appeared in Ripper Notes. October 2005

...
...The spitting image
Finally, onto the ever popular story that Joe Barnett spit into Mary Jane Kelly's open grave, and by so doing unwittingly confessed to her murder. Unlike the tales that were already discussed, this one only has an after-the-fact contemporary source, but it is often discussed on the Casebook: Jack the Ripper message boards.(Note 5) While the story may sound silly to many readers, a closer examination is well worth the effort.
The story begins with a series of British television programs in 1959 hosted by Daniel Farson. The episodes of November 5 and 12 were devoted to Jack the Ripper, and during them Farson became the first to mention publicly the Macnaghten memoranda and reveal the initials of Montague John Druitt, the "drowned doctor" in the document. As part of the program, Farson also asked members of the viewing audience to send him any old information they might have on Jack the Ripper, and this resulted in at least one interesting reply.
An elderly woman passed on a story she said her mother had told her shortly before her death. The mother, then a young woman, said she had been in the cemetery with a friend when Mary Jane Kelly was being laid to rest and that they furtively watched the proceedings. Then, the story goes, after the service was finished one man (supposedly Barnett) remained behind, whereupon he parted the boards covering the open grave and spat into that hole. This is a relatively simple story without any seeming embellishments, but even so the question remains: Was it true? And if it were, what does it mean?
This account of alleged grave-spitting is an example of anecdotal oral history, the bane of researchers everywhere. The sad truth is that "many-told" tales get more rococo with every retelling. That doesn't mean that the people telling the tales are liars or even consciously changing details - it just happens. Old athletes often joke about the way their youthful moments of glory get ever more grand and glorious as they get older, and the same is true for everyone in any endeavor - even stories elderly mothers tell their daughters.
Still, this story is fairly straightforward so let us be charitable and accept everything said as being an accurate rendering of the events. (Though if the tale were true I would suspect that the young women involved were not there by chance but had come purposely to spy on the Kelly service.) That said, however, the timing seems a little off because boards are usually placed over an open grave to prevent someone from falling in. They are removed just before the service, the casket lowered, and after the mourners have left the cemetery work crew will fill in the hole. Thus, the parting of the boards by Barnett seems unnecessary, or an embellishment to the story wrought by time.
Again, though, let us be fair and posit that the workmen had other more pressing duties somewhere and hastily replaced the boards with the intention of filling the grave later. And so perhaps it actually was Joe Barnett (though there isn't a particle of proof it was him) who parted the planks and spat into the grave - or did something. Maybe Barnett, if it were him, was literally choked up with grief so that what looked like angry spitting was the involuntary result of tears and sobs. Or, since some modern authors allege that Barnett stuttered,(Note 6) and if it were him, what seemed like spitting was only a manifestation of this supposed speech impediment that confused those watching from afar. And perhaps, if it were Barnett, he really did rail against Mary Jane Kelly (after all, she had led him a merry dance), and did spit with what he wished were real venom upon her casket. And if so, so what?
That last question, of course, is the real problem with trying to make too much of the grave-spitting story. Even if it all happened the way it was described to Farson, it doesn't constitute a lick of proof that Joe Barnett had anything to do with the murder of Mary Jane Kelly.
And what applies to this one story also does to the others we have considered. Even were they all true that doesn't mean they are capable of supporting the further "truths" some theorists try to wring from their retelling. Sadly, there are a lot more such myth-like stories out there, and what we do know as solid fact could probably be engraved on that pinhead with a jack-hammer.

NOTES:
...
5. For an example of such a discussion, see: casebook.org/forum/messages/4922/7061.html
6. Most notably in Bruce Paley's Jack the Ripper: The Simple Truth, Headline Book Publishing (1996), p. 197.

[Lurker]

The (In)Compleat GraveSpitting

Sorry about the missing picture in my second post -- goes to show you there´s nothing like CasebookForum to teach you a little humility. I could not master the knack of uploading illustrations, but for all the minds thirsting for knowledge there is an attachment signalized at the bottom of the post.
Try to enjoy nevertheless.
And accept apologies. L

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
I although biased[ naturally] am rather pleased that this incident has been yet again raised, and brought to Casebooks attention.
Ripper folk-law has been [ righty so] very much debated throughout the 20th century, and up to the present day, and much of it has a feel of pure oral history, however I feel it would be foolhardy to dismiss this incident as bunkum.
If one looks at the way this incident came to light, the person who forwarded the information [Farsons informant] and the recorded facts of the funeral of Mjk, not to mention the only comparatively recent knowledge of the recorded height of a certain ex lover named Fleming, who was confimed as a lunatic just four years after the murders ceased, and using ones sight assesing the sketch made at the funeral, one could suggest that both Barnett and Fleming attended the funeral of Mjk, and being both lovers of the deseased, one of them may have been responsible for any grave spitting that may have occured.
Purely my opinion.
Regards Richard.

[DanaeChantel]

ok, I am looking at the picture as I am writing. There are six women and two men. There is the open grave, and a pile of boards at the side. There is a large man in the front right next to the grave with a smaller man behind him. The larger man looks to be leaning forward. I do not a see a priest anywhere in the picture. Wouldn't he be wearing the robes of a priest? I don't see him. This isn't a very clear picture, and the women in the picture look like they are dressed very formal and even have bustles. How can they afford to dress this way?

I don't have an answer. I can only assume Joe stayed behind and spat on the grave. He was angry I guess. She was gone and he loved her.

Or the unknown man spat on the grave. As he was unknown, he could have been anyone. Maybe he felt inconvenienced at having to attend a whore's funeral. I'm sorry, I'm rambling. I've had a long day.

Lets go dig Mary up and ask her what she thinks.

As I stated in my above post, I don't see the preacher anywhere in the picture. There is a large man in front and a smaller one behind. However it states in the above post somewhere that the poor women and JOE BARNETT knelt beside the grave on the clay during the service. However, it states earlier that 2 coaches, one containing 3 people, the other 5, 2 of them were men, one being JOE BARNETT, the other a representative of McCarthy's, BUT it doesn't say that the poor women and BOTH men knelt on the clay, just the women and JOE BARNETT.

[Brenda]

Memories!

Oh my gosh, Lurker, thanks for posting that stuff, especially Warwick Parminter's reply to Leanne and I! That was a long time ago! Does anyone know where Warwick Parminter is now (posts under another name maybe?) For that matter, what about Leanne?

For what its worth, Joe Barnett has always set my "warning bells" to ringing. My personal gut instinct is that he was an extremely angry man, and the circumstances of him losing his job and losing Mary Kelly's affections sent him over the edge. However, this case will never be solved by personal gut instincts.

I never quite knew what to make of the grave spitting story. The people who saw it really should have gone to the police, yet I can understand why they did not. As much as I want to believe it happened, logic tells me that it is most likely urban legend.

[DanaeChantel]

Yes, unfortunately it may be an Urban Legend. Maybe Joe was angry. Maybe he was just sad and lost. We will probably never know. That Farson dude should have held on to the letter that was mailed regarding the person's mother who viewed the spitting. Again I ask, How could he lose such a valuable piece of information.

[Graham]

I don't often post on Ripper threads these days, but I'd just like to remind people, newcomers especially, that Dan Farson was the writer/investigator who really kick-started wide interest in JtR. True, he wasn't always reliable and he was a fearsome drinker, but nevertheless he never wrote a dull or boring book in his career. If you want to know more about him, read his autobiography Never A Normal Man - I'll guarantee you won't put it down. Losing something like a letter would have been typical of him.

The Grave Spitting Thing is, as someone earlier said, an absolute manifestation of Victorian melodrama, in the same vein as moustache-twirling. I think it was Farson who also mentioned meeting some old lady whose mother claims that, while walking through Whitechapel taking her husband his dinner, she ran smack into the Ripper, top hat, Gladstone bag, the lot. Course she did!

Joe Barnett tried hard to get Mary Kelly to give up her evil ways, but failed, so I suppose he must have felt sad and lost that he had no control over the women he evidently loved.

Graham

[Johnr]

I'll Drink To That Graham!

Hear hear! Graham. Well said.

Daniel Farson's newspaper obituary said he was a "monstrous drunk".....
Of one JTR book he was reviewing in the vintage centenary year, 1988, he said one theory spoke of the killer being an alcoholic journalist. " I like the form!" Farson said.

Whilst Daniel Farson's career deserves a documentary. A medium he excelled in, I am afraid his book on Jack was sprinkled with "unchecked moments of excitement".

My impression of his "Farson's Guide To The British",is, he made the series for ITV, and one episode dealt with the East End, where Farson was actually living. He had a pub on The Isle Of Dogs.

He had cycled round it with wunderkind, and Ripper theorist, Colin Wilson.
My impression was his appeal for JTR occurred in that episode ,
and that the letters were swarming in ( so much so he had to hire two research assistants!).

Having previously discovered his trump card ( the Macnaghten Memorandum) and hence, Druitt's name, his researchers were frantically trying to uncover the smoking gun as the first part of the JTR segment went to air.However, ITV decided to shrink Farson's proposed JTR segment from three episodes to two.

In the second programme on JTR, ITV had mocked up a sort of Victorian pub set. Arrayed in comfortable chairs close to the bar, were three guests, one elderly man and two elderly women. These were the people with those fantastic Ripper yarns to tell. After all, 1959 was still within living memory of JTR's campaign. Farson questioned each in turn.

One of these guests was the descendant with the Grave spitting story.
Another was the 'Handmark-In-Mary-Kelly's-Room' lady, and the third was
the descendant whose mother took her husband's dinner out on a dark night
and who encountered "a tall dark stranger with a big black bag"....


If Joe Barnett and Mrs Harvey et all all detoured to the pub near the cemetery prior to the funeral, its a wonder none of them fell in!
Maybe Joseph Barnett was just being sick into the grave!

JOHN RUFFELS.

[Suzi]

Here we go again.....

In some ways I'm pleased to see the resurrection of this thread...but to be honest- have we progressed very far?.

I have dug out my Tom Cullen,which of course cites Dan Farson..(despite being 'a monstrous drunk' allegedly- quite an enchanting image in itself!) as saying in his television programme November 1959 (Farson's Guide to the British' Associated-Rediffusion two part programme televised on 5th and 12th Nov. 1959).

Cullen says..quoting Farson...'One of these legends concerns the funeral itself and was told by a cockney type (!). 'My Mother', he said ' was at the cemetery that afternoon, visiting another grave. When all the mourners had left, she and a friend noticed one man who had stayed behind. After some time, believing himself to be alone, he parted the boards above the grave and spat down on it'.

Cullen continues, 'Another of Mr Farson's guests was a Mrs Little, who claimed that her mother had moved into No 13 Miller's Court after the murder'. Then we get to the painting of The Crucifixion and the 'bloody hand print' that cannot be removed even by painting bit(!).

Interestingly she ends her statement with 'Many smartly dressed gentlemen used to visit the house to see it'

It's a tantalising little sequence though....

Suzi