Kaufmann

[mariab]

Lynn Cates:
No, but there is a Schwarz there. (heh-heh)
What to you mean by “here“, now? I'm very intrigued.
Sorry, Lynn, never been to Sunday School EVER (I grew up in Greece, which is a very secular country), and I'm a complete atheist since a baby, so, not too well-acquainted with the bible. (The Jacob as brother I knew, though. Through osmosis? Wow, it seem to return to me that we might 've had some classes about religion and the bible at school, but then, that's precisely the classes I might have cut.)

Debra A wrote:
Maria, that other box may not exist anymore
The shelf mark for the other box appears to be completely correct, only about 30 boxes (containing other things) later after the boxes located by myself. Which very much explains how I happened to miss it in the inventaries. Don't worry, I can order it online (from home) and if it's there, it will be available to me on the next day. Unlike Italian libraries, French libraries are very stable with their shelf marks.

Debra A wrote:
Lesure's index is dated 1964. Would he still be working on it 46 years years later do you think?!
You're SO right about this! When I first googled him, I was in a great hurry and didn't even notice that all of his publications are from the 1970s and 1980s. He was a maître de conferences (Lecturer) at some French University until the late 1980s, after that I find no data, but I didn't look up in depth.

Apologies, I didn't read the Gavin Bromley essay yet (I slept like a log instead), and from now on I'm not doing any serious Ripperology until Monday or later. It's snow time for this weekend, as we're leaving tonight to go ride Fichtelberg (by the Tcheck frontier) all day tomorrow.

[lynn cates]

Jacob/Israel

Hello Maria. The first was a light hearted remark about a piece by a contemporary Schwartz.

But the other post was serious. I had forgotten that it was not uncommon for an "Israel" to become a "Jacob" as an anglicised version of the name. In fact, it seems I remember Gareth Williams once discussing this very thing.

Bottom line: in looking for Israel Schwartz, let's be sure to look under Jacob Schwartz.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Amsterdam

Hello Maria.

if you find yourself in Amsterdam, here's a good resource to research.

http://www.iisg.nl/archives/en/files/s/10769755full.php#N120BE

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

You can try Y Shvarts as well. I think that would be closer to the Yiddish.

Mike

[mariab]

Lynn Cates wrote:
I had forgotten that it was not uncommon for an "Israel" to become a "Jacob" as an anglicised version of the name. In fact, it seems I remember Gareth Williams once discussing this very thing.
Bottom line: in looking for Israel Schwartz, let's be sure to look under Jacob Schwartz.
I remember Gareth Williams saying similar things, but not from “Israel“ to “Jacob“. Lynn, why not Aaron or Moses instead? I truly hope to manage to enlist Mr. Williams, who could provide invaluable help with researching Schwartz and his family in Poland and Hungary. Not to mention that he reads Russian/Cyrillic.
It's weird that Schwartz no-first-name is enlisted as speaking (and holding speeches) BOTH in Polish and Mayarish (Hungarian), as they're two completely dissimilar languages. Very possibly the French spies were unable to distinguish between Polish and Hungarian.
Don't worry, Lynn, I'll do my best so NO Schwartz (whatever first name) escapes the search. But it's great that there are multiple people conducting this search, including an experienced Ripperologist/researcher such as Debra Arif, and a true erudite in socialist matters such as yourself.
The Amsterdam archive by the way you've already given me, but I see no chance in getting there in my immediate or in the further future.

The good Michael wrote:
You can try Y Shvarts as well. I think that would be closer to the Yiddish.
What we're looking at this point is not Yiddish. Until we get to the Yiddish, I suspect it will be the end of the year (or next year!). This might sound a bit mean, but just by looking at Dr. Turtletaub's picture online I'm not terribly surprised that she's kinda slow in delivering.

[lynn cates]

Jacob

Hello Maria.

"I remember Gareth Williams saying similar things, but not from “Israel“ to “Jacob“. Lynn, why not Aaron or Moses instead?"

Because many Eastern Europeans, in times past, tried to keep the new name, in some way, close to the old. Since Jacob and Israel are the same individual, Jacob would be adopted as it sounds less Jewish. Moreover, a new name might be chosen for its similar sound.

I offer the analogy of 3 eastern European Jews:

1. Moses Horwitz (AKA Moe Howard)
2. Shmul Horwitz (AKA Shemp Howard)
3. Louis Feinberg (AKA Larry Fine)

Also, a last name like Schwartz would naturally change to Black or something like that.

Right now, taking a cue from you about the Hungarian, I am trying to locate your no name Schwartz under Jacob. Lots of them

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Lynn Cates wrote:
Because many Eastern Europeans, in times past, tried to keep the new name, in some way, close to the old. Since Jacob and Israel are the same individual, Jacob would be adopted as it sounds less Jewish. Moreover, a new name might be chosen for its similar sound.
That part I totally got, Lynn, and I vividly remember Gareth Williams talking about this. My question pertained to why specifically “Jacob“ from “Israel“, but if it's a reference to Abraham's son changing his name when his dad met the angel () and whatnot, then I understand this.

Lynn Cates wrote:
I am trying to locate your no name Schwartz under Jacob. Lots of them.
Where are you trying to locate/where are you locating them, if I may ask?

I'm going to have dinner now, with some snowboard DVDs.
OK, I'll write a last email first. This one friend can't wait.

[lynn cates]

Jacob again

Hello Maria. Here is a link to Michael's chap.

http://books.google.com/books?id=8z8mdUYp-6gC&pg=PA60&lpg=PA60&dq=jacob+schwartz+anarchist&source=bl&ots=cVFgeT-4sK&sig=rKLo02sJKtUpkxMd7NMzv4duhFU&hl=en&ei=Ui8NTYC1B8H-8Aa__oXMDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=jacob%20schwartz%20anarchist&f=false

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

The one who went to N.Y.?
P.S.: Yeah, I just looked it up.

[lynn cates]

Rip

Hello Maria. Well, he died there, at any rate.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

OK, but this was clearly another person. Back to my email.

[Fi Saint]

Hi everyone,

Regarding Jacob and name changes with deep significance, has anyone read my first article about Gauguin last May, in Rip 114?

In the interest of research, here is a suggested annotated list of signators (is that the word?) at meetings of the Socialist League 1886, posted earlier on this thread.


1
COUNCIL:
Edward Aveling
William Morris
F Lepnen ?
Liebsonkind ?
Joseph Lane
Ernest Belfort Bax
?? Arnold
Ch-terdory ?
Thomas E. Wardle (cabinet maker, not to be confused with Thomas Wardle)
Sam Mainwaring
H. A. Barker (crossed out) (parliamentarian, Hoxton branch; SL secretary ‘87-88. Spoke on ‘socialism and dynamite’ in 86)
Philip Webb
May Morris
Charles Mowbray
Donald (Alexander Karley Donald MA) (Scottish barrister; left in 1888 to join LEP. Parliamentarian. Morris later identified Mahon and ‘that pig of a Donald’ as the root of a great deal of trouble within the SL)
Edward Gray
? Barnes ?

VISITORS
Eleanor Marx Aveling
G/C Verink ?
J. L. Joyner ?
G. J. Hutey ?
Herbert Burton?
Thomas Wardle (founder of Wardle & Co. silkworks with Morris)
? ?
A. Thorrington (Croydon)
Colgard ?
A.G. Newen ? (Croydon)
H. Carver ?
M. Lockheim ?
William Wess
I. Herman
James Allman (Mile End branch, arrested 85 at Dad St, in 86 for speaking and again in 87. Elected to SL council 87. in 86 a 21 yr old tailor’s presser, unemployed in 88)
H.A.Barker (see council)
I. Hodder
A. Benson ?
? ?.Barker (Barker above)
Donald (crossed out, see above)
Victor Dave (it was at the SL meeting of May 10 1886 that Reuss was voted out)
William Taylor
? Gahound
W Bannister

2
COUNCIL:
Thomas Binning (a parliamentarian)
H.A.Barker
W Knight
John Lincoln Mahon (had been successful organizer of miners in Midlands; left SL in 88 to form Labour Union; formerly anti-parl, became parliamentarian)
Belfort Bax
May Morris
William Morris
Sam Mainwaring
Thomas E. Wardle
Henry Charles
Lena Wardle (Thomas Wardle’s wife)
Charles (Fred Charles?)
Philip Webb (architect, lifelong friend of Morris)
H Graham
Joseph Lane

VISITORS
Annie Taylor
J.? Mainwaring
D.G. & M Nicoll (~David Nicholl ?)
G.J. Hutey ?
? Isaacs
A Dawes
I Sturgess
H Parr
G.G. Schark
Emily Walker
? Blundell
Herbert Barton?
G Williams
Thomas Cantwell
I Watson
Thomas Cooper
Thomas J. Dalgliesh ?
? Graham
C. Berinth ?
James Allman
H. Bucknell
A. Thorrington
B. Somerville

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello Fiona. Thanks for this.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Hello Fiona.
I assume you've seen Lynn Cates' posts #27 and #28 on this thread.

[lynn cates]

supplement

Hello Maria. This is Fiona's supplement. (I can't read some of those horrible signatures--they look like mine heh-heh.)

Cheers.
LC