Most ridiculous suspect

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think the fact that he is named and was at least put in the frame by the people at the time puts Druitt in at least the top ten, possibly top five suspects we have. There is no reason as far as I am concerned until/if something definitive appears to exclude him that he does not stay there. As the old saying goes there is 'no prize for second place', there is just one JtR.

For me, any suspect that has some convoluted conspiracy theory attached to them or some bizarre modern link go straight to the bottom of the list.

Supectology is the biggest dividing factor in the field and should, in my eyes be steered well clear from.

Well said Tristan. If we had the rippers name in a sealed envelope and we all had to bet £1000 on the name I’d vote that it was probably a name that none of us have ever heard of.

[Kattrup]

It's not really much of an objection, is it?

The Druittist that I know of (John Hainsworth and Christine Ward-Agius) suggest that William Druitt simply lied about the contents of the suicide note to put a speedy end to the inquest.

After all, Druitt's own family is said to have suspected him of being the Ripper. We wouldn't necessarily expect them to shout it from the rooftops, would we?

Not much of an objection, I agree, but in this case I'd have to dismiss the Druittist suggestion out of hand, since it is stated that the letter was produced at the inquest and the coroner read it.

I'm not a druittist and I do not know how they reason, but wasn't Druitt's mother catatonic? Even if Druitt was the Ripper, and had committed unspeakable acts, he might still despair at the prospect of dementia or lifelong catatonic imprisonment in an asylum. In short, I do not think there's any particular reason why a Ripper-Druitt would necessarily mention his psychopathy in his suicide note, when he committed suicide out of a more recent fear of mental deterioration.

[rjpalmer]

Ah. Simple of mind as I clearly am, it hadn't occurred to me that, here too, the approach would be 'The evidence is all perfectly clear. And where it isn't, we change it so it is'.

M.

I won't argue the simple-of-mind bit, but the 'evidence' such as it is, is that Macnaghten believed Druitt's own family suspecting him of being the murderer.

William Druitt is the one who deposed about the suicide note. If Macnaghten was correct, would you expected William to shout out his suspicions at the inquest, or downplay them?

Or are Charles Allen Cross and Henry John Holland the only ones allowed to deceive a coroner?

[Trevor Marriott]

I think the fact that he is named and was at least put in the frame by the people at the time puts Druitt in at least the top ten, possibly top five suspects we have. There is no reason as far as I am concerned until/if something definitive appears to exclude him that he does not stay there. As the old saying goes there is 'no prize for second place', there is just one JtR.

For me, any suspect that has some convoluted conspiracy theory attached to them or some bizarre modern link go straight to the bottom of the list.

Supectology is the biggest dividing factor in the field and should, in my eyes be steered well clear from.

But the evidence used to place him as a suspect is hearsay e.g "somebody told me" or "I heard" "somebody said to me" "i was told"

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[rjpalmer]

Not much of an objection, I agree, but in this case I'd have to dismiss the Druittist suggestion out of hand, since it is stated that the letter was produced at the inquest and the coroner read it

Yes, if one accepts it, it would require a conspiracy of forgery that would probably have involved George Valentine, as well, though, strange to say, there doesn't appear to be any actual evidence that Valentine was at the inquest. The Hainsworth theory is that William Druitt railroaded the proceedings.

[Abby Normal]

How is this an objection? Is it beyond the realms of possibility that even a suicidal Druitt might not have wanted to have saddled his family with the stigma of having the ripper counted among their numbers? This is clearly a non-issue and again illustrates how desperate people are to try and dismiss Druitt. Why?

I could say that at least Druitt doesn’t require the blatant manipulation of facts like the very convenient and very deliberate omission of the word ‘about’ (in book, article and documentary) so that a mysterious gap can be invented to implicate the man who very clearly discovered the body on the way too work.

Hi Herlock
Im not sure if i read the intent of marks post correctly, but if the point is Druitts depression and suicide is un serial killer like, IMHO he kind of has a point. I cant think of any serial killer who committed suicide before being caught or about to be caught. and his suicide note and its sad give up all hope tone is also unlike anything Ive heard of from a serial killer. and if it is its extremely rare.

if he was the ripper perhaps he thought he was on the verge of being caught if he knew his family suspected him? possibly also being sacked might have to do with him worrying he was suspected or may lead to it? too bad we dont know what he was sacked for and what "serious trouble" he had gotten into!

[rjpalmer]

I'm not a druittist and I do not know how they reason, but wasn't Druitt's mother catatonic? Even if Druitt was the Ripper, and had committed unspeakable acts, he might still despair at the prospect of dementia or lifelong catatonic imprisonment in an asylum. In short, I do not think there's any particular reason why a Ripper-Druitt would necessarily mention his psychopathy in his suicide note, when he committed suicide out of a more recent fear of mental deterioration.

Further, there have been murderers who have denied on their very deathbeds that they were guilty, despite all the evidence (including DNA evidence, in some cases) to the contrary. I'm not sure if the explanation of a suicide necessarily needs to be trusted. I suppose some gut instinct tells us that they have no reason to lie, since they are launching themselves into eternity.


Mark asks if Druitt could have forgotten that he was the murderer.

For what it is worth, Macnaghten evidently believed this. He once suggested the murderer may have committed his crimes a fit of epilepsy or mania and had little or no memory of his crimes afterwards.

Believe it or not. It sounds preposterous, but evidently there is some precedent for it in the medical literature.

[rjpalmer]

Supectology is the biggest dividing factor in the field and should, in my eyes be steered well clear from.

I'm curious, though. Doesn't that leave you studying the game of chess without ever moving any of the pieces?

The history of the murders can't be understood without looking at the suspects. How different would our understanding of the case be if the murderer was Cutbush as opposed to Kosminski?

Or Leary, Paul, Kidney, Barnett, and Sadler, as opposed to Levy?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock
Im not sure if i read the intent of marks post correctly, but if the point is Druitts depression and suicide is un serial killer like, IMHO he kind of has a point. I cant think of any serial killer who committed suicide before being caught or about to be caught. and his suicide note and its sad give up all hope tone is also unlike anything Ive heard of from a serial killer. and if it is its extremely rare.

if he was the ripper perhaps he thought he was on the verge of being caught if he knew his family suspected him? possibly also being sacked might have to do with him worrying he was suspected or may lead to it? too bad we dont know what he was sacked for and what "serious trouble" he had gotten into!

Hi Abby,

There’s this guy.

https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20211001-former-policeman-s-suicide-ends-35-year-hunt-for-french-serial-killer

He’d left a suicide note confessing to his crimes and DNA has proved him guilty.

This serial killer committed suicide too.

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/mass-murderer-wilder-commits-suicide

I’m certainly not disputing that it’s probably a rarity though Abby. As you said though it might have been that some knew of his guilt. Speculation of course.

[The Baron]

But the evidence used to place him as a suspect is hearsay e.g "somebody told me" or "I heard" "somebody said to me" "i was told"

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

And the provenance of this story is in no way better than the provenance of the Maybrick's faked diary.


Even more, the source of this didn't get the basic information about Druitt right, his age and occupation, and that shows he didn't know the family well to relay on.

And Macnaghten, the tea merchant, didn't do the slightest of investigation into Druitt either.


On the top of the most ridiculous suspects for me.



The Baron

[Ms Diddles]

Hi Ms Diddles,

MM must have believed he had good reasons at the time to suspect any of these men more than Cutbush.

One caveat I have is that times have changed - a lot - and what was looked for in the LVP, as 'evidence' of the deviant nature likely to lead to such crimes, may have been very different from what is considered to be evidence today.

To pick the obvious example, modern serial killers rarely if ever commit suicide until they are in custody and physically prevented from feeding their addiction to murder. I don't know if it would have been different back then. I suspect it was a combination of Druitt's alleged 'sexual insanity', and the timing of his suicide coupled with the theory - by 'normal' men - that the murderer's brain must have given way after Miller's Court, that sowed the seeds - none of which would have the same effect today.

Druitt's family connections brought him to MM's attention, which is also slightly troubling, as there must have been other men who fit the same broad criteria but just didn't enter MM's thinking. We'll never know if there was anything much more specific in that private information to incriminate him, but if there was, would he still have been just one of three on MM's list?

Love,

Caz
X

It's a valid point, Caz!

I'm sure that notions of offending behaviour / psychology will have changed considerably over the years.

Of the three named suspects on the MM, Koz and Ostrog fit the classic notions of a mad man and a wrong 'un.

I find Druitt's inclusion the most intriguing.

Was it simply his "sexual insanity" combined with the timing of his suicide as stated, or is there something much more incriminating in the private information?

I'm resigned to the fact that we will never know!

Being a professional "gentleman" from such an illustrious family, Monty is kind of the antithesis of who one would expect to see on such a list at that time.

That just makes me wonder if there is something more in that private information which resulted in his inclusion.

[Simon Wood]

Why do we believe Macnaghten believed Druitt was the murderer?

[The Baron]

Why do we believe Macnaghten believed Druitt was the murderer?

Out of hand Simon





The Baron

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

There’s this guy.

https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20211001-former-policeman-s-suicide-ends-35-year-hunt-for-french-serial-killer

He’d left a suicide note confessing to his crimes and DNA has proved him guilty.

This serial killer committed suicide too.

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/mass-murderer-wilder-commits-suicide

I’m certainly not disputing that it’s probably a rarity though Abby. As you said though it might have been that some knew of his guilt. Speculation of course.

thanks herlock
I could definitely see it as more probable if he thought he was suspected.

[Herlock Sholmes]

And the provenance of this story is in no way better than the provenance of the Maybrick's faked diary.


Even more, the source of this didn't get the basic information about Druitt right, his age and occupation, and that shows he didn't know the family well to relay on.

And Macnaghten, the tea merchant, didn't do the slightest of investigation into Druitt either.


On the top of the most ridiculous suspects for me.



The Baron