Prove it

[c.d.]

It seems to me that we are ignoring some basic questions here - Do five murders establish a pattern that is set in stone or is that number too small from a statistical standpoint for valid comparisons? Since there are differences in all five murders does that mean that there had to be five different killers? Can a pattern be deviated from in any way or does it have to be rigidly adhered to?

It would appear that your mindset on these questions determines how you see the C5.

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

It seems to me that we are ignoring some basic questions here - Do five murders establish a pattern that is set in stone or is that number too small from a statistical standpoint for valid comparisons?

I think it's legitimate to make comparisons based on the probability (or frequency) of a given behaviour, CD. Murder associated with the opening up of body cavities is very rare, and the removal of organs even rarer. That being the case, the co-incidence of body cavity opening together with organ removal is rarer still - therefore, to see it happen over such a short period of time, in a small geographical area, makes it statistically very unlikely that more than one killer was involved. But throat-cutting alone? Almost commonplace in comparison - and it doesn't need a Jack to do it.

[perrymason]

I think it's legitimate to make comparisons based on the probability (or frequency) of a given behaviour, CD. Murder associated with the opening up of body cavities is very rare, and the removal of organs even rarer. That being the case, the co-incidence of body cavity opening together with organ removal is rarer still - therefore, to see it happen over such a short period of time, in a small geographical area, makes it statistically very unlikely that more than one killer was involved. But throat-cutting alone? Almost commonplace in comparison - and it doesn't need a Jack to do it.

My second favorite post.....maybe even a tie for first.

Cheers Sam

[Tom_Wescott]

But throat-cutting alone? Almost commonplace in comparison - and it doesn't need a Jack to do it.

Name one Whitechapel murder in 1888 outside the C5 where a woman's throat was slit away from her house and no suspect was charged. Since it's so commonplace, I'm sure you'll be able to come up with a few out of an entire year. At least one?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

Name one Whitechapel murder in 1888 outside the C5 where a woman's throat was slit away from her house and no suspect was charged. Since it's so commonplace, I'm sure you'll be able to come up with a few out of an entire year. At least one?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Yes, Sam needs to be able to validate his statement but I don't think we need to play "gotcha" like we are little kids.

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

My apologies to Sam for the tone of my post. I never played 'gotcha' as a kid, so I'm making up lost time. Actually, Sam is the usual 'ruler on the wrist' guy for us around here. Ask Perry Mason about that. He's usually the first to point out if someone has made an unsupported statement - and rightly so in most cases - but it's only fair to do him the same service. He says that murders like Liz Stride's were commonplace in Whitechapel, but I have never seen this demonstrated. We are only told about women murdered by their husbands at home. Obviously, Stride's murder is more in line with the Ripper murders than these women murdered at home by their husbands, so the comparison doesn't wash. We can't say that Kidney killed Stride, because in all likelihood he did not. So who did if not Jack? And why? And is it likely the murder could be so 'clean' if it were an act of passion or a drunken brute?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

Tom writes:

"He says that murders like Liz Stride's were commonplace in Whitechapel"

...but that is not correct. What he DID write was that they were ALMOST commonplace IN COMPARISON. Plus, when he says this, he speaks of throat-cuttings generally, and not specifically of Stride´s death.

Gotcha!

Fisherman

PS. Where does the "drunken brute" apply ...?

[Tom_Wescott]

Semantics, Fishstix. My objection is with the word 'commonplace', which Stride's murder certainly was not. Outside of Nichols, Chapman, and Eddowes, it was unique in it's area and year. The opening of body cavities and removal of organs was only slightly more unique, occuring in 3 cases instead of 4.

Where did drunken brute come from? Then as now, drugs or alcohol is present in a majority of murders.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

Tom W writes:

"Semantics, Fishstix."

Absolutely and definitely not, Tom. There is a vast difference in stating that the exact type of murder that Stride was the victim of would be commonplace, since each and every murder is unique. Havin the throat cut by a knife, though, is not - not by any stretch.

"Where did drunken brute come from? Then as now, drugs or alcohol is present in a majority of murders."

Right! I thought you were describing BS man. And I do not have him down as a street thug myself. That´s why I asked.

The best,
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

I agree with you, people being murdered by a throat slit would obviously be more commonplace than organ removal. But attempting to use such a generality in evaluating a victim's candidacy is disingenuous to say the least. I'm not saying that's what Sam was trying to do, but I see such comments used regularly and it simply does not apply in this case. The C5 and Tabram were anything but common in the area.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

Tom writes:

"attempting to use such a generality in evaluating a victim's candidacy is disingenuous"

It may be, Tom - but then again, as you know, I am of the meaning that Jack was never about in Dutfield´s Yard.
Speaking about people who do not see Jack when looking into Dutfield´s Yard, did you make it through Yost´s book?

The best,
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

My apologies to Sam for the tone of my post.

No problem, Tom - I took no offence. Thanks to CD, anyway.

Coming to your point - do we really need examples of where people were killed by a murderer cutting their throats? The practice must been part of the human landscape ever since knives - even flint ones - were invented.

[perrymason]

Since the Canonicals only comprise 5 of some 13 or 14 women that were attacked with a knife in unsolved crimes over approx 18 months or so around the Ripper spree, some with slit throats, and since Mr Brown of London slices his wifes throat the same night as Liz Stride's gets slit....Sam has some corroboration in the general statistics alone.

Of all those women only 5 had their abdomens opened post mortem, of those 5, only 1 kept all her organs. And she is the proposed first Ripper kill.

Liz Strides murder is unremarkable except for its timing.

Best Regards.

[perrymason]

If anyone hasnt seen this before its an interesting way to familiarize yourself with the recorded murders in London in 1888.....Its the TimesOnline site, (.co.uk), and its called the Murder Map of 1888. Im sorry I couldnt post just the link, but when I tried inserting it wouldnt work...not much of a keyboard wizard sometimes.

Youll see all the murders including the Canonicals on an interactive map, so you can review the specifics.

Best regards

[Tom_Wescott]

Speaking about people who do not see Jack when looking into Dutfield´s Yard, did you make it through Yost´s book?

Not yet, but I did look for my name in there and saw it (honestly, what writer doesn't do that?) which made me feel really good. I need to get writing again, dammit.

Since the Canonicals only comprise 5 of some 13 or 14 women that were attacked with a knife in unsolved crimes over approx 18 months or so around the Ripper spree, some with slit throats, and since Mr Brown of London slices his wifes throat the same night as Liz Stride's gets slit....Sam has some corroboration in the general statistics alone.

Of all those women only 5 had their abdomens opened post mortem, of those 5, only 1 kept all her organs. And she is the proposed first Ripper kill.

Liz Strides murder is unremarkable except for its timing.

Uh...the timing is a pretty big factor. Within 45 minutes time and 10 minutes walk of another victim? And then there's the location, the same as Chapman's, and that troublesome little fact that her beau appears not to have been her killer, thus it's not a likely domestic homicide. I'd say that eliminates all these other irrelevant murders and leaves - as always - only the Whitechapel murders. Does that prove she's a Ripper victim? Absolutely not. Does that elevate her from a mere possibility to a probability? Some would probably say yes.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott