Prove it

[Guest]

Hello all,

I know for myself I take a lot of abuse here for suggesting since my arrival here a few years back that the Canonical Group is a flawed and baseless premise by which to construct a Ripper search.

I feel that at the very least 1 woman can be excluded summarily based on the fact that the death is unlike a Ripper murder and mutilation....the combination of the 2 is what defines his activities. Its cutting into people he kills that separates these crimes from any average knife murder,....like 2 of three throat cutting deaths seem to be on the "Double" Event night.

I also believe that the last murder has factors which supersede some similarities in the mutilation phase...in that the victim was half the age of priors, likely sleeping when she meets her killer in her own bed and room, and the only organ taken from both victim number 2 and 4 is left behind.

A recent really rude remark made my way prompted this post, if you want the source see the general victims discussion thread, but the gist of the post directed at me suggested I should provide proof that they should be excluded or I should stop saying it.

The poster forgot that these are all officially unsolved murders.

But, in case you agree.....Here's the opportunity for any and all who feel they can make a legitimate case with supporting evidence for a single killer of just these 5 women, and all of the 5 women.

As most of us know, Legal Guilt is assigned based on evidence, and suggested links to a single killer would be based on the physical evidence or behaviors.

My stance.... and that of many others including one of the most respected names in this field, is that I'd be happy to consider any victim that seems to fit with Polly and Annies murder style and content. But I can only see 2 or perhaps 3 of 5 that meet that criteria.

Prove me wrong.

What physical evidence links all 5 of these killings to one killer?

Id ask that anyone with a grudge towards me send me a message rather than post it here..no-one cares to read that kind of thing anyway.

Best regards all.

[Jon Guy]

I know for myself I take a lot of abuse here for suggesting since my arrival here a few years back that the Canonical Group is a flawed and baseless premise by which to construct a Ripper search.

To be fair, Mike, it is only you who is constantly mentioning and questioning the Canonical five.


[/QUOTE]What physical evidence links all 5 of these killings to one killer?[/QUOTE]

Medical evidence links four of the victims to one killer.

[Robert]

Hi Michael

I'm not going to write a long essay. I'll just take one of the points you mention - the age. Does anyone really think that Jack only wanted to kill and mutilate middle-aged women? So that in effect he was thinking to himself "I'll let you escape, because you're young. I'll kill you, you're old. You look like you're in your 30s - please wait a moment while I consider my options"?

That aside, Kelly's age has no bearing if like me you consider that Jack simply entered the room unaware of who or what he would find inside.

[Sam Flynn]

That aside, Kelly's age has no bearing if like me you consider that Jack simply entered the room unaware of who or what he would find inside.

Assuming he had, Rob, I doubt that he'd have thought, "Curses! Not old enough!", mumbled an apology about being in the wrong flat, and left in search of a middle-aged woman.

We can surely discount the ages of the victims as a defining factor, given that there would have been more knackered fortysomethings on the streets than twentysomethings. The latter would have had better job prospects, and hence more likely to be able to afford lodgings. In addition, a twentysomething wouldn't yet have progressed as far down the slippery slope of alcoholism, and more likely to have had a boyfriend, husband or a family to support her. Kelly, of course, was an exception to this... she had a lot more in common with the other WM victims than one might think if one focused solely on her age.

[Robert]

Yes Gareth, we don't hear of a suspicious man going around asking women their age.

Also, the younger prostitutes would have had higher earnings than the older ones, and would have been less desperate to turn out at all hours of the night looking for custom - though as a counterbalance it could be argued that they would have been more likely to have kids to feed.

[Sam Flynn]

though as a counterbalance it could be argued that they would have been more likely to have kids to feed.

...which would, I think, have been offset by a higher likelihood of having a man of employable age - or an extended family - around to help provide for them. The problem with the C5 (and others like them) was that they were somewhat cast adrift along a number of dimensions.

[EricCarter]

Hello all,

I know for myself I take a lot of abuse here for suggesting since my arrival here a few years back that the Canonical Group is a flawed and baseless premise by which to construct a Ripper search.

I feel that at the very least 1 woman can be excluded summarily based on the fact that the death is unlike a Ripper murder and mutilation....the combination of the 2 is what defines his activities. Its cutting into people he kills that separates these crimes from any average knife murder,....like 2 of three throat cutting deaths seem to be on the "Double" Event night.

I also believe that the last murder has factors which supersede some similarities in the mutilation phase...in that the victim was half the age of priors, likely sleeping when she meets her killer in her own bed and room, and the only organ taken from both victim number 2 and 4 is left behind.

A recent really rude remark made my way prompted this post, if you want the source see the general victims discussion thread, but the gist of the post directed at me suggested I should provide proof that they should be excluded or I should stop saying it.

The poster forgot that these are all officially unsolved murders.

But, in case you agree.....Here's the opportunity for any and all who feel they can make a legitimate case with supporting evidence for a single killer of just these 5 women, and all of the 5 women.

As most of us know, Legal Guilt is assigned based on evidence, and suggested links to a single killer would be based on the physical evidence or behaviors.

My stance.... and that of many others including one of the most respected names in this field, is that I'd be happy to consider any victim that seems to fit with Polly and Annies murder style and content. But I can only see 2 or perhaps 3 of 5 that meet that criteria.

Prove me wrong.

What physical evidence links all 5 of these killings to one killer?

Id ask that anyone with a grudge towards me send me a message rather than post it here..no-one cares to read that kind of thing anyway.

Best regards all.

There is medical evidence that links them. You have the medical examiners of the time stating that it seemed to be the same hand in all of the killings.

As far as the style of the killings goes, anyone that has done any serious study of serial killers can tell you as the killer matures as a killer the style changes. Also the setting and circumstances must be taken into consideration as well.

In the case of Stride, I think that he was interrupted by the arrival of Diemschutz.

In Kelly's case he had all the time in the world to do as he pleased and did.

Tabram's shows a killer still uncertain but has the ear marks of what follows.

As far as weapons goes and the number of them serial killers use different methods all the time. The Zodiac shot some of his victims and stabbed others and made threats to use explosives.

You can't just pick one aspect of the crime and say because this is different it's another murderer, it might be but if other factors fit it is more than like the same hand in it all. All of the victims were lower order prostitutes, all were killed in dark places used for immoral purposes (except Kelly), and all were killed by having their throats cut (except Tabram). The medical examiners all saw the same hand in the C5 and many of the police felt the Tabram was Jack's as well.


Eric

Eric

[sdreid]

I don't see anything that "proves" that the C5 weren't killed by 5 different murderers. There are enough commonalities though that lead me to think that they all were slain by the same person.

[Sam Flynn]

In the case of Stride, I think that he was interrupted by the arrival of Diemschutz.

On which point, see this. It's on a Stride thread - where any response to it should belong - but nobody seems to have picked up on it yet.

I return you to this thread

[Mr.Hyde]

What you will all ultimately discover is that all 5 CVs evolved from a fairly simple blackmail.Probably went back a few years.Escalated when JTR finally snapped.
Most CVs had friends,even relatives,in common.

[Mr.Hyde]

Should have read-ALL CVs,etc.not most.

[perrymason]

Yes Gareth, we don't hear of a suspicious man going around asking women their age.

Also, the younger prostitutes would have had higher earnings than the older ones, and would have been less desperate to turn out at all hours of the night looking for custom - though as a counterbalance it could be argued that they would have been more likely to have kids to feed.

Hi Robert,

To address the multiple posts from you and Sam on the above point, age may certainly be a disqulaifying characteristic as well as a private room might be....if the "Ripper" killed homeless, older women as his preference.

Seems Mary is the only victim with defensive wounds, so that may be part of the proof. This is the murder of a young healthy woman who is not homeless.

Best regards

[perrymason]

What physical evidence links all 5 of these killings to one killer?[/QUOTE]

Medical evidence links four of the victims to one killer.[/QUOTE]

Thats not accurate Jon, the opinions of some attedning physicians as to the probable killer do...not the wounds themselves. By medical evidence, Polly and Annie can be easily grouped, and Kate can be a strong consideration if not a likely 3rd.

The medical evidence says that Polly, Annie and Kate were not resisting lying on the ground face up when their throats are cut. It also suggests that the next action is a cut into the midsection. It also suggests that Liz Stride had a single artery severed completely and she may have been cut while falling and being choked. It also says that Mary was attacked with a knife, so is conscious and resisting before the throat is cut but while the killer is using a knife.

Cheers Jon.

[perrymason]

I don't see anything that "proves" that the C5 weren't killed by 5 different murderers. There are enough commonalities though that lead me to think that they all were slain by the same person.

Although I differ in my conclusions I fully agree with your perceptions Stan. Nice to have you weigh in.

Best regards mate

[Robert]

Hi Michael

If we take what you're saying to its logical conclusion, then Jack killed only two (can't have Tabram - killed indoors and no evisceration; can't have Nichols - no evisceration ; can't have Kelly - killed indoors and too much violence ; can't have Stride - no mutilation).

By the same token, the murders of Nichols, Stride, Tabram and Kelly are all different from each other.

Therefore at least five different men decided to take up murder in the same small area of London in the same three month period.

Was it something in the water?