Annie Crook

[Graham]

Hi Grave Maurice
Would you care to pick a point showing 'uninformed' or is this the usual general dismissal through mockery without serious thought?
I was showing points surrounding the royal conspiracy that arouse suspicion and suggesting that krinoid follow these up.
I personally lean more towards a political conspiracy for reasons unknown but when you accept a conspiracy or cover up then any person/persons of importance could be central.

Hi P'sS.

Have you read Stephen Knight's book JackThe Ripper - The Final Solution? If not, it's worth a read in its own right; if so, then all I can say is that you are, the same as all of us on this forum, entitled to your opinion.

Smelling a political conspiracy for 'reasons unknown' is no answer at all nor the basis for serious discussion. If you think there's a political conspiracy going on, then you must have reasons for so thinking.

No-one is trying to 'get' to anyone else here - it's a case of suggesting that certain theories formulated over the years have little or no proveable basis in fact. They are, at best, just theories; at worst, highly-imaginitive fiction. All part of the Ripper Game, mate.

Cheers,

Graham

[packers stem]

Hi Graham
Yes,i've read Knights book many years ago along with a couple of dozen others.It is required reading along with many others such as the books on tumblety,barnett and Hutchinson.They will all in some way give you something to think about,even Maybrick had me hooked for a few weeks.
You're right i can not see the fire but i can see the smoke.Not having any definite suspect does not detract from the feeling of there being 'something different'.
Anderson-The Fenian expert,appointed assistant within hours of Nichols death.
Off on his jollys hours before Chapmans and coming back after the double event.
I strongly suspect that Eddowes's death should have been the end of things and that she was mistaken for Kelly.
Warren resigning hours before the millers court murder.
Warren venturing to Goulston Street in the early hours is particularly bizarre.
RIC in Millers Court.
Fluctuating names and statements from witnesses which in newspaper reports seemed to suggest a possible 'watcher' but when done officially tried to water down the importance of the watcher such as Schwartz where the knife turns into a pipe!!
Elizabeth Long couldn't identify the man or woman she saw originally then changed her mind.
The rediculously rapid final inquest,in the wrong district.
The list is endless really and i for one find it difficult to pass over too many coincidences,incorrect procedures and strange circumstances.
If i had to stick my neck out i'd go with Kelly or Fleming being some kind of informant-Strange for Fleming to be yet another who's locked up with feelings that someone's trying to kill him??
As we all know,evidence is a different matter.
We are all entitled to our thoughts.

[Krinoid]

To grave maurice

Ed glinert's various books has many quotes begining w/ "some Ripperologists believe" many of the posts that I have written on this website. Again if we are only dealing with HARD evidence you cannot discuss any suspects or theories on this forum period! Prove me wrong as no one has done that with Ed glinert's theories also, the map was done WRONG!!!!!!See the other thread on Glinert's EEChronicles.

[Krinoid]

wrong!

Well I think you answered your own question Krinoid. Nobody heard anything because people were used to hearing a lot of noise throughout the night.

No, that was only the Miller's court that quote applied to that region, not the others, so no it doesn't answer my question but it's nice looking for a quick inaccurate fix rather than thinking about it.

[Limehouse]

No, that was only the Miller's court that quote applied to that region, not the others, so no it doesn't answer my question but it's nice looking for a quick inaccurate fix rather than thinking about it.

This was an area where people came and went at all hours. There was a constant stream of workers walking to and from the markets and slaughter houses because they opened from about 3am. People went out to buy supper after midnight. People had a 'totty' in the pub on the corner at 5am. There was potentially a lot of noise in many of the streets so it would not be unsual for people to accept this as normal and blank it out. You yourself wrote that people heard a cry of 'murder' and ignored it because it was normal for this area. That might explain why people didn't 'hear' things that they didn't expect ot hear.

If you want to know why the women didn't scream you might try screaming with your throat cut down to your windpipe. You would not make much noise.

If you feel strongly the women were killed elsewhere - why do you think the conspiritors took such as risk as to dispose of the bodies in busy streets rather than dumping them in the Thames?

If you apply your own argument to your own theories and you think the women were deposited on the streets by way of a horse and carriage - why didn't anyone report hearing the clopping of horses or the sound of a carriager being driven through the relevant streets?

[The Grave Maurice]

OK, I should, and do, apologize. Of course, everyone here is entitled to his or her opinion. I was too dismissive. It's just that some of us were talking about the Royal Conspiracy theory in the early '70s. We continued to do so until about the mid-80s. It died because of a complete lack of evidentiary support. Virtually every book on JtR, for the next ten years or so, contained a detailed refutation of the theory. It concerns me that some new members know so little of the literature. But, as I say, you are free to believe what you want. However, don't expect those of us who went down that road, and found it to be a dead-end, to encourage you.

[Krinoid]

If you feel strongly the women were killed elsewhere - why do you think the conspiritors took such as risk as to dispose of the bodies in busy streets rather than dumping them in the Thames?
see my thread on Ed Glinert's book for theories on why

[Krinoid]

[QUOTE=The Grave Maurice;148134]OK, I should, and do, apologize. Of course, everyone here is entitled to his or her opinion. I was too dismissive. It's just that some of us were talking about the Royal Conspiracy theory in the early '70s. We continued to do so until about the mid-80s. It died because of a complete lack of evidentiary support. Virtually every book on JtR, for the next ten years or so, contained a detailed refutation of the theory. It concerns me that some new members know so little of the literature.
What makes you think I and others have not read the recent books???? I quoted several time from Begg- JTR Facts book in the postings above,isn't that considered one of the best reference books? And before you jump in, I have many more books than just that one. And the Glinert books are "recent" books even 2009, that suggest the ideas also mentioned above. Doubts are starting to cross people's minds again becasue of the anomilies in this case like no other in history. I did not say it had to be the "royal " conspiracy but I believe there was one of a kind of conpiracy politically and also something masonic/knowledge of london sites going on.

[corey123]

If you feel strongly the women were killed elsewhere - why do you think the conspiritors took such as risk as to dispose of the bodies in busy streets rather than dumping them in the Thames?
see my thread on Ed Glinert's book for theories on why

They were not disposed of but rather were found where they died.

[Krinoid]

2 Questions Unbeleiveable

JTR the Facts and the History by Begg mentions another Elizabeth annie crook at the right cleaveland st location and at the right time but says she was a different person? How does he know this, he does not elaborate? Isn't that a strange conicidence Again!!!
another one-the whole fact that Prince albert is associated already with the cleaveland street location due to the scandal of the brothel, before JTR The final solution? So, he did know this area,another conincidence again along with the fact that Abberline was assigned to the Cleaveland Stret scandal!!!Isn't this totally out of his area???

[Krinoid]

[QUOTE=Limehouse;148086]
If you want to know why the women didn't scream you might try screaming with your throat cut down to your windpipe. You would not make much noise.

I am talking about sounds before their throats were cut and again only Miller's Court cries were ignored is mentioned.

[Krinoid]

I MEANT THE ACTUAL "KILLING SCREAMS AND SOUNDS"ETC..,one of the first thing you hear when people discuss each victim is "nobody heard anything",all you are describing are people who saw the deceased before the murder time. How could JTR work with such privacy and pass among everyone so easily without no one noticing blood on him for example and so on?? Someone must have saw something.
From what I read the cry of murder you mentioned was always heard regularly in that area and locals ignored it and there is no direct link to that killing.

There was no privacy in the East end whatsoever at that time is widely known so how could this happen?

[corey123]

Hello Kinroid,

If you wish to progress your theory, you might want to address some problems with it first.

1) If you believe Sir William Gull to be a conspirator, his age is a major concern.
2) They were not disposed of, as Knight mentions, but rather were found where they were killed.
3)The "Grapes" is another problematic situation.
4)The notion that they knew each other is most likely false.


This is of coarse only if you subscribe to Knights theory. Now one of political conspiracy, do you have a reason why there would be a need to have one?

Yours truly

[Krinoid]

If this evidence was actually found..

. . In 1894 Poor Alice was destitute in Endell St. Workhouse and says mother is a prisoner, however unable to find Annie in 1894
Linda

Where did this information come form above??[/QUOTE]
If this was found by Linda it is a major breakthrough, no one has commented on it?

[Krinoid]

Hello Kinroid,

If you wish to progress your theory, you might want to address some problems with it first.

1) If you believe Sir William Gull to be a conspirator, his age is a major concern.
2) They were not disposed of, as Knight mentions, but rather were found where they were killed.
3)The "Grapes" is another problematic situation.
4)The notion that they knew each other is most likely false.


This is of coarse only if you subscribe to Knights theory. Now one of political conspiracy, do you have a reason why there would be a need to have one?

Yours truly

Can we leave the conspiracy angle out of it, and focus on the questions I asked in previous postings that remain unanswered