Annie Crook

[harry]

Packers stem,
If you wish to private mail me I can supply an address should you be interested.
Harry.

[packers stem]

I am related to a Nell Crook.She was my aunt by marriage.I have a copy of her marriage certificate kindly given by a former poster,a person who attempted to trace a relationship between Nell and Annie.No relationship could be established.

As early as the 1930's ,I became aware of rumours from Nell's children,my cousins,of a royal relationship to their family.This was reinforced by another aunt,a sister-in-law of Nell,who also at that time,1930's,mentioned such a connection.This aunt would have first met Nell prior to 1920,not sure of exact year,

It is a queer coincidence that two independent families of the same name have been so linked to a supposed royal connection,but beyond remembering that it was spoken of in regard to Nell,I cannot recall any details being given.

One other mystery.On the death of my uncle,Nell's husband,she having pre deceased him,a total stranger called at the house and wished to buy two paintings which were in the families possession.He offered one hundred pounds each,but gave no details of who he was or how he knew of the paintings,or why he wished possession.

The above is true.Make of it what you will.

This is so interesting and the family oral tradition reminds me of Ellen May Lackner,Joseph Sickerts cousin.Could never think of a sensible reason why an old lady would want to lie about it to ripperologists when interviewed,probably the most compelling factor of the conspiracy theories.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=4970

Also i've seen the 'buy painting for huge amount of money' before in the sickert/royal stories but can't pin it down at the moment

[harry]

Thanks John,
I do still have that copy,but I would be interested in any other material.

In general ,I will repeat.I will divulge the address of the grandson to anyone that is interested.A face to face discussion might be more beneficial than other means.

While I am not convinced of a connection to Annie Crook,another family connection spoken of by the aunt,that is a family connection to the Henry Ford of car fame, seems to bear more fruit.A brother of mine visited Ireland last year,and his investigations there did place Henry Fords Family,and Charlie Fords family(Charlie was my Grandfather,and the father of my mother,my aunt,and Harry Ford,Husband of Nell Crook)as once both living in the same village in Ireland.The families were 'Tinkers".

[John Savage]

Hi Harry,

As regards that marriage certificate I will most probably still have it in one of my old box files, possibly even some notes I made at the time. If you or anyone else needs it I will be happy to look through my old files.

Rgds
John

[Rubyretro]

The only reason I can think of Prince Eddy would go around with these women,if he indeed did, was to wallow in the mire,so to speak,

Why any royal or nobleman would go after East End whores when you have the creme de la creme of the demimonde to choose from is beyond me.

Hollydolly - I've only just read your Post, because I was looking at Harry's
very interesting Post.

Being a woman, I can't really understand this 'mind set' but years ago a man that I knew once drove me on a trip that took a few hours. In the car he started talking about his using prostitutes (I think that we passed one on the road), and being fascinated, I questioned him -and he was only too happy to 'open up'.

He was a respectable journalist, who had worked for the council and had been a ski champion in France -and had a beautiful and intelligent long time girlfriend ; why he would risk his relationship, or need to pay for sex, was amazing to me.

He said it was all about the exchange of money -domination if you like.
He had the weirdest set of values you could imagine. He said that the prostitutes definately had a hierarchy, and he liked the lowliest ones (that is, without even a room, but standing by the road), because he admired their nerve so much. He was particularly bowled over by one, who he said was only 16, stood by a main route, and catered for lorry drivers in the bushes.
he kept saying "..Chapeau !" (hat's off !(to her)). He was incapable of understanding my sadness and concern for this poor girl, and he saw her as
feisty and brave..

So that Royals or Upper Class men might want to frequent the lowliest prostitutes, might be incomprehensible to US, but some seem to, and it's not just about self abasement, nor 'payback'.

ps -this guy did not consider that he was being 'unfaithful' to his girlfriend at all, since he did not
consider going to a prostitute having anything to do with a relationship...he could not understand my point of view that if he REALLY thought that it was all so 'normal and innocent', then he would be happy for his girlfriend and employers, mother etc to know about it (and he patently wasn't !).

[harry]

Thanks Graham,Stephen,and John.
There is possibly a better source of information than myself.It is a grandson of Nell and Harry Ford my uncle,the only close living relative of Nell and Harry.There were five children of the union,four daughters and one son.Four of the children married,but only one daughter produced a child,the grandson I mentioned.I lost contact with the family when I emigrated to Australia,and only saw them on visits I made back to uk,and the last brief contact was in 1992.
I did not even know of the Grandson's existance untill a few years ago,when a letter arrived from him,telling me one of the cousins had died,I believe the last of the five,and that person was an aunt of his.Apparently he was quite close to this aunt,and had supervised the disposal of her estate.It was while browsing through her papers that he had chanced on my address.So it is quite probable that he would have come into possession of information concerning the family,maybe old records such as birth,marriage and death certificates.
If anyone is really interested,I can pass on his last known address,it is in Cornwall.I'm sure he would be receptive to a proper approach.
As John has said,he was the person who took an interest years ago after I had posted a message on the old boards,and he obtained a copy of a marriage certificate of Nell and Harry Ford's marriage.I do not have the copy at hand,it is buried somewhere among my papers,but from memory the Crook family were at the time living in the village of Churchdown,in Gloucestershire.Nell and Harry eventually settled at Milkwall,near Coleford,Forest of Dean,Gloucestershire,and died there.

[John Savage]

Hi Harry,

"I am related to a Nell Crook.She was my aunt by marriage.I have a copy of her marriage certificate kindly given by a former poster,a person who attempted to trace a relationship between Nell and Annie.No relationship could be established."

Yes I remember doing that search although it was quite a few years back.
When it comes to researching a family tree I must confess I am not the best, but these days we have some posters here who are very good at such things, the technology has moved on as well.

Perhaps if you were to post here what you know someone might be able to help?

Rgds
John

[Stephen Thomas]

I am related to a Nell Crook.She was my aunt by marriage.I have a copy of her marriage certificate kindly given by a former poster,a person who attempted to trace a relationship between Nell and Annie.No relationship could be established.

As early as the 1930's ,I became aware of rumours from Nell's children,my cousins,of a royal relationship to their family.This was reinforced by another aunt,a sister-in-law of Nell,who also at that time,1930's,mentioned such a connection.This aunt would have first met Nell prior to 1920,not sure of exact year,

It is a queer coincidence that two independent families of the same name have been so linked to a supposed royal connection,but beyond remembering that it was spoken of in regard to Nell,I cannot recall any details being given.

One other mystery.On the death of my uncle,Nell's husband,she having pre deceased him,a total stranger called at the house and wished to buy two paintings which were in the families possession.He offered one hundred pounds each,but gave no details of who he was or how he knew of the paintings,or why he wished possession.

The above is true.Make of it what you will.

Hello Harry

I don't normally quote entire posts here but that one was quite spooky and delightfully composed. In my own family it's believed that we are related somehow to General Allenby who is a forgotten figure now but once was a famous guy, the boss of 'Lawrence of Arabia'. As you know, in the old days, some things were known but better left unsaid

All the best

[Graham]

Fascinating, Harry. And I think this underlines the reason why Stephen Knight's book was so popular, as Jeff points out. (By the way, it was Joseph Sickert, not John). At the back of the popular mind and imagination there always lies the concept that there ain't no smoke without fire, and I would never discount the possibility that Eddy had some kind of liason with a working-class woman. His old man had a serious liking for actresses. But I can't really buy the Royal Conspiracy - doesn't really make any sense to me.

Harry says that an unknown person bought 2 paintings from his forebears, giving no reason why he wanted them. Didn't Sickert claim that someone walked into his Dieppe studio out of the blue and paid him over the odds for a poor painting, without discussion, negotiation or explanation?

Graham

[harry]

I am related to a Nell Crook.She was my aunt by marriage.I have a copy of her marriage certificate kindly given by a former poster,a person who attempted to trace a relationship between Nell and Annie.No relationship could be established.

As early as the 1930's ,I became aware of rumours from Nell's children,my cousins,of a royal relationship to their family.This was reinforced by another aunt,a sister-in-law of Nell,who also at that time,1930's,mentioned such a connection.This aunt would have first met Nell prior to 1920,not sure of exact year,

It is a queer coincidence that two independent families of the same name have been so linked to a supposed royal connection,but beyond remembering that it was spoken of in regard to Nell,I cannot recall any details being given.

One other mystery.On the death of my uncle,Nell's husband,she having pre deceased him,a total stranger called at the house and wished to buy two paintings which were in the families possession.He offered one hundred pounds each,but gave no details of who he was or how he knew of the paintings,or why he wished possession.

The above is true.Make of it what you will.

[Mayerling]

Many years ago I came to the conclusion that despite "democracy" or"republicanism" most people in Great Britain, the Commonwealth, and the United States have a degree of social snobbery they do not like to drop. They will even transfer it to certainl families who are not really noble or royal.

In the U.S. it is the Kennedys. If you are a fan or not you can still get tied down to debates about Chappaquiddick or Marilyn Monroe. A stupid comparison of Lincoln's and Jack Kennedy's assassination "coincidences" which lies contiuously (Booth running from a theater to a tobacco barn is not the same as Oswald running from a book warehouse/depository to a movie house!) has been changed with a "funny ending" that a week before Lincoln died he was in "Monroe, Maryland" and the week before he was killed JFK was "inside" Marilyn Monroe - who had actually been dead a year.

Same with the Brits and the Royal Family. Look at the continuous interest almost fifteen years after her death with Princess Diana and Dodi Fayed.
Or two generations ago Princess Margaret and her first love, a married war hero. It is because these people allow us to live a different lifestyle vicariously.

Victoria was not always liked - yeah, because she overdid the morning for Albert and for years was barely seen by the public (until they began making remarks about her having a highland fling with her ghillie John Brown). But the assassins that were mentioned earlier were for the most part mental cases. One, was a nephew of a leacing chartist, and tried to force the Queen to sign a reform intended document. As for Edward, yeah he certainly got into scrapes with the Mordaunt Divorce and Tranby Croft, but he also was popular because he had the common touch - which aided him when fe finally became King in 1901. Oh, whereas Victoria was attacked seven or eight times from 1840 - 1882, only one attack on Edward occurred in 1900, while on a trip to Belgium by a foreign anarchist. That is hardly a great deal of dislike.

John Sickert (if we can call him that) , and Stephen Knight, and Dr. Stowell tapped into that romantic / raffish snobbery in the Royal Cover-up. That it survives even now just shows how powerful popular urban myth can be

Jeff

[HollyDolly]

Annie Crook

Couple of brief points:

1] don't think it's true that the Royal Family were held in much awe in those days - there were several attempts to assassinate Queen Victoria, and the Prince of Wales (later Edward VII) was quite often booed when he appeared in public. Including a divorce case and the Tranby Croft case when both times he appeared in court.

2] I made a quick check of when Walter Sickert was first associated by a third party with the Ripper Case, and the best I've come up with was 1947 when Sir Osbert Sitwell mentioned in some memoirs that Sickert often talked about the case and claimed to know the identity of JtR. I think this was the origin of the Mad Veterinary Student. Not that I looked all that hard, so I won't be surprised if someone comes up with an earlier date for the first reported association of Sickert with the case.

3] The very concept of a bunch of East End whores blackmailing the RF always sounded totally preposterous to me - for a start, how would they have gone about it? How would anyone go about it today?? Did they plan just to write a simple letter - "All is known" - and take it from there???

Cheers,

Graham

I'll have to read the Cornwell book on Sickert again, but he was probably blowing smoke so to speak,if we don't know who the Ripper was, then neither did he most likely.
As far as the East End whores are concerned,I would assume they would have to send a letter detailing any activity between themselves and Prince Eddy or his father to prove they were telling the truth.You know,names, dates, places,etc.
The only reason I can think of Prince Eddy would go around with these women,if he indeed did, was to wallow in the mire,so to speak, getting back at most likely his grandma,Queen Victoria,rather than his mother Alexandra,but i could be wrong.Besides a payback sort of thing,you had women like Cora Pearl, Jose Collins, Gaby Deslys,and others who catered to the uppercrust,who i imagine were quite health consious if you get my drift.After all,it wouldn't do to give the King of Spain a veneral diease,and loose those lovely gifts and jewels he bestowed on you for services rendered.
Why any royal or nobleman would go after East End whores when you have the creme de la creme of the demimonde to choose from is beyond me.
Unless it was a payback to someone or a self abasement thing.
And why kill these women, why not give them money and sign a paper stating that if they ever try to extort more money or go to the press with their stories, they will be sent to jail for blackmail and slander.
And if the royals did have them killed, why in such a dramatic fashion? Why not just cut their throats or base them in the head and make it look like a robbery or something.After all this is a danger run by all prostitutes even in our times, of being killed by a client or serail killer.
Of course the prince could have visited a brothel rather than just some streetwalker which would make a little more sense.Some of them were quite well known.
And in regards to a secret marriage between Prince Eddy and a shopgirl, I seem to recall that King George the 4th,when still a prince married a Mary Herbert or Fitzherbert who was a catholic.I have forgotten what happend, but she never was made Queen of England.

[Krinoid]

Nobody is being an idiot Krinoid.He may have been bisexual and he may not have been very bright.But I actually read some things he said to the recruits at Toynbee Hall when it was newly built and he spoke like a person of average intelligence who had had the advantage of being well taught.

That is why I think Eddy should not be called an idiot.

[Natalie Severn]

or the poster?

Nobody is being an idiot Krinoid.He may have been bisexual and he may not have been very bright.But I actually read some things he said to the recruits at Toynbee Hall when it was newly built and he spoke like a person of average intelligence who had had the advantage of being well taught.

[Krinoid]

It seems infinitely more possible that he was an idiot.

or the poster?