Annie Crook

[Simon Wood]

Hi Krinoid,

I thought it worth bringing to your attention that your "other Annie Crook" was in fact Elizabeth Cook [note the different surname spelling].

That these were two different women should become apparent by the fact that whilst in 1888 Stephen Knight's Annie Crook was allegedly being spirited away to Guy's Hospital by a "fat man and a woman" for a spot of masonic lobotomy at the hands of Sir William Gull, Elizabeth Cook continued to live at No. 6 Cleveland Street until 1893.

It is also worth noting that prior to Annie Elizabeth Crook and her daughter Alice being brought to the Endell Street Workhouse [where they were recorded as 'destitute'] by PC 453D on 22nd January 1889, they had last been living at No. 9 Pitt Street, Tottenham Court Road.

As you have a copy of Stephen Knight's "JtR: The Final Solution" to hand, you may care to check whether or not he referenced these inconvenient facts which, at the time of his book's original publication, were freely available at the Marylebone Record Office and Greater London Record Office.

In fairness, however, I will credit Stephen Knight with one thing. I believe he was the first to bring Israel Schwartz to our attention.

Regards,

Simon

[corey123]

Hello Kinroid,

Im not attacking you, rather suggesting that since none seem interested in answering many of these quetions, perhaps you should do some research and perhaps write about it.

No harm intended

[Krinoid]

JTR the Facts and the History by Begg mentions another Elizabeth annie crook at the right cleaveland st location and at the right time but says she was a different person? How does he know this, he does not elaborate? Isn't that a strange conicidence Again!!!
another one-the whole fact that Prince albert is associated already with the cleaveland street location due to the scandal of the brothel, before JTR The final solution? So, he did know this area,another conincidence again along with the fact that Abberline was assigned to the Cleaveland Stret scandal!!!Isn't this totally out of his area???

yes I did post on the earlier different surname of Crook(meaning I already knew that), it is hard to do JTR extreme research in the US, i wish people here would read all the posts and stopped judging

[Limehouse]

There is absolutely no evidence that Prince Albert Victor was involved with the Cleveland Street scandal - there is only rumour.

With reference to why Abberline may have been involved in the Cleveland Street investigation - it was not out of his area at all. He was only seconded to Whitechapel to investigate the Ripper murders. He was seconded there from Scotland Yard and it was never meant to be a permanent appointment. He had also worked in the Whitehall division so it was perfectly reasonable for him to have been placed in charge of the investigation in Cleveland Street because it involved high ranking officers of State.

Hope this helps to answer a few of your questions.

[Natalie Severn]

There is absolutely no evidence that Prince Albert Victor was involved with the Cleveland Street scandal - there is only rumour.

With reference to why Abberline may have been involved in the Cleveland Street investigation - it was not out of his area at all. He was only seconded to Whitechapel to investigate the Ripper murders. He was seconded there from Scotland Yard and it was never meant to be a permanent appointment. He had also worked in the Whitehall division so it was perfectly reasonable for him to have been placed in charge of the investigation in Cleveland Street because it involved high ranking officers of State.

Hope this helps to answer a few of your questions.

Juile,
Abberline did quite a cover up over the Cleveland Street scandal ,reported in the press at the time ,so while its true that the prince has not been able to be linked directly it is quite likely he was a regular visitor along with a number of other aristocrats.There was an excellent lecture on it at the Whitechapel Society a couple of years ago.
Best
Norma

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

The Stephen Knight narrative involving Prince Albert Victor [Eddy] going through a secret Catholic marriage with Annie Elizabeth Crook, thus providing a premise for the Whitechapel murders, is pure and unbridled bunkum.

But . . .

Just prior to the 6th July 1893 marriage of George, Prince of Wales, to Princess Mary "May" of Teck, who had previously been betrothed to the late Prince Albert Victor, a story by George W. Smalley, London Correspondent of the New York Tribune, revealed that a few years earlier George had married "by the Roman Catholic ritual" the daughter of a naval office stationed in Malta. According to the law the marriage was a nullity, but at the time George hoped Eddy would marry and have children, thus leaving him clear to legalize his own marriage. However, the death of Eddy banished that hope, apparently leaving George thoroughly distraught.

Make of it what you will.

Regards,

Simon

[Limehouse]

Juile,
Abberline did quite a cover up over the Cleveland Street scandal ,reported in the press at the time ,so while its true that the prince has not been able to be linked directly it is quite likely he was a regular visitor along with a number of other aristocrats.There was an excellent lecture on it at the Whitechapel Society a couple of years ago.
Best
Norma

Hi Norma

So - if the Prince was a likely or possible client of the brothel - he was unlikely to have entered into a marriage with a shop girl?

Can you jopin the WS even if you don't live in London and can't always get to lectures? The meetings sound so interesting.

[Limehouse]

Hi All,

The Stephen Knight narrative involving Prince Albert Victor [Eddy] going through a secret Catholic marriage with Annie Elizabeth Crook, thus providing a premise for the Whitechapel murders, is pure and unbridled bunkum.

But . . .

Just prior to the 6th July 1893 marriage of George, Prince of Wales, to Princess Mary "May" of Teck, who had previously been betrothed to the late Prince Albert Victor, a story by George W. Smalley, London Correspondent of the New York Tribune, revealed that a few years earlier George had married "by the Roman Catholic ritual" the daughter of a naval office stationed in Malta. According to the law the marriage was a nullity, but at the time George hoped Eddy would marry and have children, thus leaving him clear to legalize his own marriage. However, the death of Eddy banished that hope, apparently leaving George thoroughly distraught.

Make of it what you will.

Regards,

Simon

Thanks for that interesting story Simon. Of course - George and Mary went on to make quite a good marriage but there were to be more family secrets that came to light some years later - including the shutting away of one of their children who suffered from epilepsy. I have heard our own Queen make reference to her grandmother - Queen Mary - as a stern but loving grandmother.

I wonder what other secrets she took to her grave in 1953?

[Simon Wood]

Hi Limehouse,

I would think Queen Mary took many secrets to her grave.

Prince Eddy was reported to have died of pnuemonia in January 1892, but as early as 30th October 1889 the New York Times reported that "word was sent around to the London dailies" not to print certain news from Athens about his health and that "the papers here all obeyed the suggestion."

The New York Times correspondent continued, "A medical report received here today says the effects of Bright's disease are beginning to be obvious, and the result of his [Eddy's] visit to Egypt will be watched for with deep anxiety."

According to various medical journals of the time Bright's disease and syphilis were fairly closely related, so perhaps one of the rumours about the cause of Eddy's death was true.

That would have been a secret worth keeping.

Regards,

Simon

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma

So - if the Prince was a likely or possible client of the brothel - he was unlikely to have entered into a marriage with a shop girl?

Can you jopin the WS even if you don't live in London and can't always get to lectures? The meetings sound so interesting.

Oh I think Don Rumbelow showed that was a lot of nonsense Julie.He showed the workhouse records throughout the lives of the Crook women and there isnt the slot for it to have happened---certainly not marriage.
The answer is that you certainly can be a member Julie,there were people there from Yorkshire and the midlands who had travelled down for it.And its worth it,last night"s meeting was fantastic!

[Phil Carter]

PAV in the A-Z

Hello all,

In the latest A-Z, page 17, the following is noted..

...Prince Albert Victor was central to several scandals, although the only one to become public was the Cleveland St scandal. In 1889 his name was linked with a homosexual brothel frequented by several young aristocrats, but a cover-up kept his name out of the British newspapers... (from various sources)

and further...

...The release of Special Branch papers in 2005 revealed both Palace and police had been at some pains to pay off and send them (Mrs Haddon and her son, Clarence abroad and there seems every possibility that the Haddon claim was true. A note written by the Duke Of Clarence in 1891 to his solicitor, George Lewis, dicussed paying £200 (almost £12,000 in today's money) for the return of the letters written to a Miss Richardson and another woman, thought by modern commentators to have been prostitutes, who were blackmailing the Prince following the announcement of his engagement to Mary of Teck....

It is therefore interesting to note that suggestions of 5 things here, blackmail, involvement with prostitutes, a love child, police involvement and a cover-up, were, although at the wrong time, with the wrong people, all part of the original story that came out in Stephen Knight's book as told by Joseph Sickert. The other thing to note is the date of the release of the Special Branch Papers, 2005. Joseph William Charles Gorman Sickert died in 2003.

Whether true or false, it leaves a very interesting little set of circumstances to ponder over.

best wishes

Phil

[packers stem]

Hi all
"on the morning of the 13th january the prince became delirious and began shouting about his regiment and his brother officers,Lord Salisbury and Lord Randolph Churchill" Edward and Alexandra page 183.
"on the 13th he was delirious,raving and shouting the names of people who were not there,and never had been.'who's that' he asked over and over again,seeing no-one" The importance of being edward page 331

Strange that these two men should be uppermost in his mind in his dying hours along with the 'who's that' as if he was afraid of someone.Did he feel that his death was not altogether natural?
Obviously the Cleveland Street scandal being the most obvious reason for his above mentioned behaviour.
The previous post by Phil is very interesting in that it gives us many of the Sickert story ingredients.Bribery,blackmail,illigitimate child.
I suspect people have been very harsh on Joseph and that all he was probably trying to do was to tell a story woven by Walter ,a compulsive story teller.
Now time to branch off a bit again-
If there was an irish connection to the ripper could Walter have known this through any of the artists house sharing with McGrath.Knowing such a big story and not daring to say anything ,could he have come by all this later information regarding eddy and found a way to link a conspiracy theory with eddy thus satisfying his compulsion to relay a conspiracy without putting himself in danger.
or worse still-
There was mention by Knight of a scapegoat being set up.
Could this whole prince eddy story have been the scapegoat story to be leaked in case of anyone getting too close to the truth?Of course if there was never any suggestion of a cover up pre 1970 this would be irrelevant wouldn't it?

[Natalie Severn]

Interesting Packers Stem,
I know Lord Randolph Churchill is said to have lost his mind due to syphilis and that numbers of stories abound about him going with prostitutes which he may have done.But then we get onto the invented stuff---in my opinion, about him being jack the Ripper which I can"t accept.
The whole business must have had every rake and odd ball in London suspected by their friends and relatives of being JtR.Meanwhile the real JtR was
having a ball!
Norma

[packers stem]

Hi Norma
I'm sure you're right that none of the known mentioned celebs were JTR and so many combinations of them have been thrown together by various authors.
I have always though been quite concerned by the idea that J.K. Stephen 'gave up food on hearing of the death of eddy',i mean they weren't that close were they? that he would want to die himself within weeks and then the case being closed almost immediately afterwards.Never mind ,just one of those concidences again i suppose.
I have seen mentioned on a forum that was not a jtr website,it was one about freemasons, that someone's research had led him to believe that someone (and he did mention the name but it was not one i knew) from the 'marlbrough club?' had got Mary Kelly pregnant at some point,this would presumably be while she was in the west end.What really caught my attention was that it wasn't a known name connected with JTR.If i can find this again i'll post a link.

[Limehouse]

Interesting Packers Stem,
I know Lord Randolph Churchill is said to have lost his mind due to syphilis and that numbers of stories abound about him going with prostitutes which he may have done.But then we get onto the invented stuff---in my opinion, about him being jack the Ripper which I can"t accept.
The whole business must have had every rake and odd ball in London suspected by their friends and relatives of being JtR.Meanwhile the real JtR was
having a ball!
Norma

Hi Norma

I have heard that Randolph Churchill had syphilis too - in fact there was a probgramme on TV not so long ago that examined his last illness and came to that conclusion. However - I think they presumed he had contracted it abroad but I can't remember why. He may well have also used prosititutes as men of his type seemed to. Perhaps it was because they had strange attitudes towards sex with their wives once they had produced offspring.

I agree that amoing that class - anyone displaying strange or distressed behaviour may have been suspected of being JtR by their families. I believe this is what happened to Druitt. There may even have been cases of mental illness where the family member themselves feared that they were Jack and confided in a member of the family. Perhaps this was so in Druitt's case.

Personally - if I was looking for someone who was JtR - I'd be looking for someone who was local and who would have been trusted by the women because he seemed so familiar. I'd be looking for someone who behaved normally between attacks - perhaps someone like Peter Sutcliffe.