Annie Crook

[Krinoid]

And the real reason I think the Royal theory still resonates, is there are too many unexplained or wierd things with this case that are totally different form other serial murders, for example why did so many documents disappear, witneses not matching descriptions of everything from graffiti(and why it was erased abruptly by POLICE) to suspects profiles not matching at all,why there was no blood on the ground of the victims(suggesting movement meaning more than one person), why no one in any area saw anything or heard anything (which is totally unlikely everytime)???
Begg does mention a nun that says something to the effect if MK was not around none of this would have happened,something was being covered up,it might not be a marriage or child but something was. Some of the victims were using the Kelly name and Dorset street is very significant also, why did the killings stop after MK?? was it because the objective was achieved and therefore was extra brutal out of frustration on finishing???

[Krinoid]

I wish the fact that Joseph "Sickert" finally admitted his whole Royal Conspiracy was "a whopping fib" had been reported in the mainstream media even half as much as the ones debunking the Loch Ness Monster surgeon's photo or the crop circles of Doug and Dave.

From what I gather, Sickert retracted that stament later.

[Graham]

Krinoid obviously wants to believe in some kind of Royal Conspiracy, but if he/she or anyone else can show me just one iota of proof that anyone in the Royal Family was involved, I'd be very interested. For my money, it stems from persons who either had vivid imaginations or who were out and out liars, or both. I don't recall Joseph Sickert withdrawing his claim - again, if he did, can someone confirm this? Stephen Knight seemed to have concluded that he'd been taken in, and put it down to experience.

Graham

[Limehouse]

And the real reason I think the Royal theory still resonates, is there are too many unexplained or wierd things with this case that are totally different form other serial murders, for example why did so many documents disappear, witneses not matching descriptions of everything from graffiti(and why it was erased abruptly by POLICE) to suspects profiles not matching at all,why there was no blood on the ground of the victims(suggesting movement meaning more than one person), why no one in any area saw anything or heard anything (which is totally unlikely everytime)???
Begg does mention a nun that says something to the effect if MK was not around none of this would have happened,something was being covered up,it might not be a marriage or child but something was. Some of the victims were using the Kelly name and Dorset street is very significant also, why did the killings stop after MK?? was it because the objective was achieved and therefore was extra brutal out of frustration on finishing???

Why did so many documents disappear? - 1. Well it's a very old case so things are bound to go missing or fall apart from age. 2. Scotland Yard was blown up and then moved so again- things get misfiled when they are being moved. 3. People stole them for their novelty value.

Why was the graffiti removed? Because it was feared it would start a riot.

Why were there conflicting statements by witnesses? Because people are only human and mistake one person for another - miscalculate height - forget what the person they saw was wearing and so on.

Why was there no blood on the ground? Well there was. Several accounts of the murders mention the blood being washed from the coobles by a policeman using a bucket of water and one account describes how the blood from Liz Stride's wounds ran across the cobbles.

Why did several of the women use the name Kelly? Because they probably had charges against them for prostitution and didn't want to tott up too many convictions. Also - some of them may have done 'moonlight flits' from lodgings without paying rent and wanted to avoid being tracked down so they changed their names. Kelly was a common name in the district so it was easy to deny being 'that particular Kelly'.

Why did the killings stop ofter MJK? Well - did they?

Why didn't anyone see or hear anything? Well they did. Someone heard a cry of 'Oh! Murder!' on the night that Kelly was killed. Another man heard something falling against the fence in Hanbury Street on the morning that Chapoman died. Chapman was seen near to 29 Hanbury Street on the morning she died and Catherine Eddowes was seen walking down a court with a man towards Mitre Square close to the time she may have died. Kelly was seen with 'Blotchy face' - and so on.

If the Royals had anything to do with this case - I'm a banana!

[Krinoid]

Why was the graffiti removed? Because it was feared it would start a riot.

Why was it not photographed before erasing as other police at the time mentioned??

[Limehouse]

Why was it not photographed before erasing as other police at the time mentioned??

Police photographers were thin on the ground. They may have not been able to get hold of one at that time of the morning. The longer the message remained - the longer it was likely to cause problems. What should have happened was that it should have been copied down accurately by someone reliable.

We don't even know for sure that the message had anything to do with the murders. Why should one of the Royal Squad want to write a message about 'Jewes'?

As I said before - the method of killing jsut doesn't make sense if the purpose was to cover up a Royal marriage.

The killings have all the hallmarks of a lust killer.

[Krinoid]

Why didn't anyone see or hear anything? Well they did.

I MEANT THE ACTUAL "KILLING SCREAMS AND SOUNDS"ETC..,one of the first thing you hear when people discuss each victim is "nobody heard anything",all you are describing are people who saw the deceased before the murder time. How could JTR work with such privacy and pass among everyone so easily without no one noticing blood on him for example and so on?? Someone must have saw something.
From what I read the cry of murder you mentioned was always heard regularly in that area and locals ignored it and there is no direct link to that killing.

[Krinoid]

See my thread on Ed Glinert's East end chronicles book for other ideas

[packers stem]

Hi Krinoid
Wow they've got you rattled,don't let them.
There are two groups of people with an interest in JTR.
There's the accepts and the dubious
The Accepts will only believe official documents and the ramblings of retired officers as absolute truth.(if there was a conspiracy it would be in the files- oh really!!!)
They will also have a firm serial killer profile in mind and will not vary from this.
The doubters will look at all evidence often favouring newspaper reports as they have doubts about the honesty of the officials.Look at how newspaper reports changed over a few days into official reports with slight differences that totally altered the complexion of the evidence.
They will also look at hearsay,circumstantial evidence and not dismiss bizarre occurances as mere coincidence.
I have no problem declaring myself in the second category as a conspiracy or at the very least a cover up is obvious to me although i'm unsure as to why.
If you truly believe it was a royal conspiracy just stick to your guns and don't let them grind you down and concentrate on these points.
1.John Netley-This man did exist and he was a driver.A man giving the name Nickley did jump in the thames in 1892 and if you say Netley in a common london accent it will sound like Neckley.
2.Don't believe the hype about the message on the wall(Graffiti it is not).
Graffiti is 'Jacks a jew' or 'it's the jews wot dunnit'.Nothing like the grammatically excellent paragraph with an apparently incorrect spelling even though all other words are spelt correctly.The word 'juwes' was ,according to the dissertation on this site, used until the early part of the century in freemasonry in england then dropped but it was continued in the US and presumably in scotland also as theres is linked more closely with the US than England(would it be the same case with Ireland also?),just because it was no longer used in england there's no need to rule it out.
3.1892-This is the biggee.In a six week spell between the middle of January and the end of February we saw the death of PAV(shouting about leading government officials on his deathbed-he clearly smelt a rat),the death of J K Stephen(delusions of persecution-similar to the above i suppose) and the closure of the case on Jack the Ripper.Quite a lot to happen in 6 weeks!
Not sure on what date Abberline got the push but i'll bet it wasn't long after,or the 'neckley incident'.
With your making connections between the murder sites try it without millers court as it's possible that the last intended murder was mitre square.You may get much more interesting solutions such as sue and andy Parlors arrow.
I live in hope that Mary Kellys diary(or that of her son?) may turn up in Ireland some day
Request from your library every listed book on walter sickert and you will find at least one very peculiar looking gull in an ennui sketch.
Don't worry about the Joseph Sickert lying stuff.Yes he did embellish,i get the feeling he was told the story in childhood and was desperately searching for a way of proving it by creating some facts,but his cousin did confirm his story and what did she have to gain from lying.If anyone lied it was probably Walter Sickert to Joseph.Once Joseph retracted his first story the 'accepts' pounced without really thinking if he was in a position to have made it all up.
As for the last two ripper victims both understood at the time of their death to be Mary Kelly.Sorry ,coincidence doesn't go that far,it just doesn't.
For any two of the five to have even the same surname would have been hugely coincidental but the last two ? and for both to use the name Mary??
Lastly on this point before someone comes on and mentions John Kelly and eddowes using his name,yes i get that but why change her first name or why not just use jane like at the pawnbrokers?
Sorry i just don't buy it ,could she have been asked to give that name by whoever bought her drinks?

[The Grave Maurice]

I'm at a loss for words. I can only suggest that, perhaps, packers stem and Krinoid should go away together and create a new website for the seriously uninformed.

[packers stem]

I'm at a loss for words. I can only suggest that, perhaps, packers stem and Krinoid should go away together and create a new website for the seriously uninformed.

Hi Grave Maurice
Would you care to pick a point showing 'uninformed' or is this the usual general dismissal through mockery without serious thought?
I was showing points surrounding the royal conspiracy that arouse suspicion and suggesting that krinoid follow these up.
I personally lean more towards a political conspiracy for reasons unknown but when you accept a conspiracy or cover up then any person/persons of importance could be central.

[corey123]

I am starting to hate the word "conspiracy", how about it?

[packers stem]

Sorry Corey but were stuck with it.We can't deny they go on today so we have to presume they have always been a part of political life.

[corey123]

Hello Stem,

Sorry Corey but were stuck with it.We can't deny they go on today so we have to presume they have always been a part of political life.

This is funny. Sorry I had to do it

Jack has my vote good sir.

[Limehouse]

I MEANT THE ACTUAL "KILLING SCREAMS AND SOUNDS"ETC..,one of the first thing you hear when people discuss each victim is "nobody heard anything",all you are describing are people who saw the deceased before the murder time. How could JTR work with such privacy and pass among everyone so easily without no one noticing blood on him for example and so on?? Someone must have saw something.
From what I read the cry of murder you mentioned was always heard regularly in that area and locals ignored it and there is no direct link to that killing.

Well I think you answered your own question Krinoid. Nobody heard anything because people were used to hearing a lot of noise throughout the night.