Ouija Board

[Malcolm X]

a real OUIJA board works, it isn't something to fool around with, simply take a look at what people say about it on the web.... i have no idea how it works, but it definitely opens up a portal that invites evil in

[Crystal]

What? What? It opens up a portal wot lets evil in? We are still on the Toppy thread...Right?

[Malcolm X]

What? What? It opens up a portal wot lets evil in? We are still on the Toppy thread...Right?

you should've gone to Specsavers

[The Good Michael]

What? What? It opens up a portal wot lets evil in? We are still on the Toppy thread...Right?

What's evil? Oh, the forces of dark and the forces of light kind of thing? Zoroastrianism and later, Christianity? Yeah, good myths all around. I shingle my roof with ouija boards. The only curse there is that rain soaks through after a while.

Cheers,

Mike

[DVV]

The zoroastrian theology is wonderful, especially for those who are fascinated by the problem/mystery of evil, Mike.
If only I could be in touch with Zarathustra with an ouija board.

Amitiés,
David

[The Good Michael]

Interesting indeed. I believe that most religions come from Zoroastrianism in some way. But I believe that religion is similar to ouija. It only works if you believe it does, and so, does it work? Maybe the eternal question.

Mike

[Crystal]

You think that religion is a necessary evil, then Mike?
Keeper of doubtful salmon..

[The Good Michael]

Crystal,

I think self-restraint is a necessary concept, and one that applies to consumerism, capitalism, and emotion. Religion should be the champion of all those things. Instead, it has become the enemy. Organized religion is the evil. Personal beliefs are acceptable, but should have no noticeable external manifestations that can be pointed to as qualities of a particular religion. Organized religion has done no good for the sake of goodness itself. Individuals who happen to adhere to certain religious tenets may do acts of good (which may not really exist), but it is due to personality and internal concepts of right and wrong and not due to religion itself.

Sorry, I ranted. I must use self-restraint next time.

Mike

[Crystal]

Ooh! Michael!
That deserves a considered response-and possibly advice from the Salmon. I shall consider..

[Crystal]

Crystal,

I think self-restraint is a necessary concept, and one that applies to consumerism, capitalism, and emotion. Religion should be the champion of all those things. Instead, it has become the enemy. Organized religion is the evil. Personal beliefs are acceptable, but should have no noticeable external manifestations that can be pointed to as qualities of a particular religion. Organized religion has done no good for the sake of goodness itself. Individuals who happen to adhere to certain religious tenets may do acts of good (which may not really exist), but it is due to personality and internal concepts of right and wrong and not due to religion itself.

Sorry, I ranted. I must use self-restraint next time.

Mike

Self restraint is a necessary concept - well, yes, taken to a logical conclusion, if we all disregarded self-restraint entirely, we'd have anarchy and chaos - er.. wait a minute - yes! That perfectly encapsulates the evil West!

Of course, on a personal level, we must all practice self-restraint, otherwise all sorts of terrible anti-social (in the collective sense) behaviour would be rife. Equally of course, none of us really enjoy these self-imposed rigours, which is why we have public forums in which a degree of anonymity allows us to loosen the reins a little - Yes, you at the back, you know I mean you....


Witness the recent tavern brawl in the 1911 Horror thread, for example.

But, you say, it should apply to consumerism, Capitalism and emotion. One at a time, I think.

Self-restraint is clearly, and of course, incompatible with both Consumerism and Capitalism, both of which rely and depend on the ideology of a disposable, transient material culture as a social more. So no self-restraint there - if we consumers living in a Capitalist economy give it all up and start trying to live a little like people have done for the rest of our history on earth, Capitalism won't be going out to the pub with it's best mate Consumerism any more, because they'll both be out of pocket and down on their luck.

Emotional self-restraint? I see exactly where you're coming from, Mike, I do.
It's never worked for me, although I learned how to preserve my dignity (and my mouth) somewhat more in recent years. I think I must accept that I shall always aspire to, but not ever quite attain, emotional self-restraint.

But now to move on - Religion. Ah - I hate you! I said I wouldn't discuss religion or politics, and here I am doing both! Your view of what religion 'should' be is idealistic. If you were a Marxist, you would know what religion was for - although, living in London in the latter half of the 19th Century, you might well have thought the same, if you'd been Marx or Engels.

Is it the champion of self-restraint? Of course, historically, it is. And that is because society cannot be ruled, governed or indeed function without the rules of self-restraint. Politically, religion has been the media by which those values have historically been perpetuated in society.

But organised religion has not been, and is not just, about social control. It is the other side of the coin as well - social glue (no, not the sort you can find lying on the gutter in our fair sink estates..) by which it is meant - what binds a community together in ideological terms. Even if you don't believe in belief, that truth still stands. Organised religion has been integrated within society to an extent which has meant that society would not have functioned without it.

You may argue that we no longer require its services, since in our own world, the focus on the individual as of paramount importance, is of paramount importance.

And I would say - look what we do instead. Since we all, as human beings, constantly search for answers, on whatever level that may be, we don't stop looking for them, just because somebody took the old ones away. At least the Church has structures, whatever you may think of them. At least it isn't an online ouija board. Organised religion can, and has been repressive in some contexts, but I would stop short of labelling it 'evil'. It appears to be a little more complex than that.

And lastly (want more coffee. Hah! I have a pot!)
The idea that people do good according to personal, internal concepts of morality, and not because they have 'faith' - So where do these concepts come from? Now, I'm not saying that they all come from religion, but they have to come from somewhere, right? I'm interested to hear your view on this - do you think they are innate? Or learned?

The basis of personalitiy is an altogether different debate, which I will happily have with you, and the Salmon, naturally.

Adios, Mike!

Crystal, Church Historian etc.

[The Good Michael]

The idea that people do good according to personal, internal concepts of morality, and not because they have 'faith' - So where do these concepts come from?

They come from the desire to feel good about one's self. Good is not done out of selflessness. It is done for selfish reasons. Giving a gift may be done for the smile it puts on one's face, but ultimately, it is about what that smile does for you; how it makes you feel. Those feelings for some people outweigh the benefits of just taking something from others. I don't think faith or religion plays a role, or at least, I don't think it can be proven to.

Mike

[Crystal]

Ah yes, but where does that desire come from? If it comes from the cultural aspirations and values of the society within which that individual is placed, as it appears, then doing 'good' is not simply about the 'feel good' factor, is it? Then, it becomes about being socially integrated, yes? And social integration is a matter of survival, rather than simple morality.

What do you think?

[The Good Michael]

Yes. I didn't want to go there yet, but ideas of morality are all about survival of the species. Things like caring and nurturing are just group survival techniques.

Mike

[Shelley]

What? What? It opens up a portal wot lets evil in? We are still on the Toppy thread...Right?

What wot! let's evil in...Let's summon up the Ripper and makes sure the killer gets caught with 21st century technology, we'll sure get the ripper this time!....erm, have they the techonology to get spirit finger prints?