What about the pimps?

[BLUE WIZZARD]

miss marple,

Thanks for the heads up and the time you took to write it.

Unlike Supe you did not try intimidation, in which I'm very familiar with.

So let me get this straight, the unfortunates were not trespassing on organized prostitution?

BW

[Sam Flynn]

So let me get this straight, the unfortunates were not trespassing on organized prostitution?

There was little in the way of organised prostitution in Spitalfields at all at that time, Wiz. The "unfortunates" who predominated in the area were casual street-walkers, and there were very few "brothels" (in the modern sense) to be found there.

[Supe]

BW,

It's not a Napoleon complex is it?

Nope, much too tall for that.

But seriously, why the accusation of intimidation? I certainly don't pretend to have all the answers (or even any), but merely suggested that a richer understanding of the era's social history may be a necessary tool for speculating about Jack.

As it is, stop and ask yourself if these poor, vulnerable women like Polly and Annie and so on would have even been allowed to ply their trade if there had been pimps (as the word is understood today) operating in Whitechapel. Sure, there were bullies (as we know that word) like Leather Apron who would try to terrify the women and youngsters might be desperate enough on occasion to try to rob whatever pittance the women had. But that the women clearly streetwalked as freely as they did should suggest strongly there were not even organized extortionists with whom to contend, far less pimps as we know them.

It was a different world from today and until that is accepted, the hunt for Jack is ever more difficult. That was all I was saying. And if you don't agree, that's your perogative.

Don.

[Frank]

Blue Wizzard and the rest,

At the risk of insulting some people, steep yourselves in some period social history rather than applying your 21st C conceptions. If nothing else, read Mayhew (he is actually fun to read). At the least carefully read what Miss Marple wrote above. There were no pimps for these people, certainly not in the modern sense, and (just in case someone asks) there were no fly guys riding around in pink hansoms with fur trim.

Don.

Hello Supe,

thanks for Your commendation. I think You are talking about "London Labour and the London Poor", aren't You? I try to get copies as soon as possible.
I did not intent to apply a 21st C conception to the Victorian era, I was just wondering. I am new in the ripper research and I have to learn a lot. So please excuse me asking seemingly silly or redundant questions.

Yours truly,
Frank

[Supe]

Frank,

Nobody was born knowing it all and even those of us who hsve tried only know a little bit, so welcome to the club! Glad to have you aboard and who knows--you may be the one who comes across that one hitherto undiscovered piece of information that answers lots of questions.

Yours,
Don.

[BLUE WIZZARD]

Excuse me all over place Supe,

It's not a Napoleon complex is it? was out of line, but you were getting on my nerves, I'm not educated in Victorian history, I was just asking a question about pimps, not expecting an education on the spot with what I should read with out an answer as to whither I'm right or wrong in speculating.

Starting on the wrong foot seems to be the norm here.

So sorry about the Napoleon complex question. I'm sure you are at least 10' tall.

BW

[Supe]

BW,

I'm sure you are at least 10' tall.

Nah, but just a couple more inches and height and weight would be fine--sigh!

Tell you what, we seem to have gotten off on the wrong cadence so let's forget the past few messages and start anew, okay?

Don.

[Stephen Thomas]

Although the actual origin of the word is unknown, the term "pimp" was introduced to the English language early in the 17th century. At the time, it meant "a person who arranges opportunities for sexual intercourse with a prostitute." This is still the common meaning of the word when you hear someone talking about a pimp.

Hi BW

You are quite correct and this activity has been going on since caveman times and of course was going on in the LVP, as it of course is now.

A bit of a no-brainer here so don't be discouraged by others.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

During the reign of Edward I [1239—1307] there was a law of "pimp-tenure" on the Statute Books, whereby tenants had to keep "six damsels" for the use of the lord.

Regards,

Simon

[Sam Flynn]

You are quite correct and this activity has been going on since caveman times and of course was going on in the LVP...

I'm pretty sure it went on in Whitechapel, too, Stephen - however, it's surely a question of scale. It's a bit risky to throw a blanket of pimps and prostitutes over the East End without first understanding how prevalent pimps were in Spitalfields specifically, or without knowing how "organised" prostitution really was in that area.

More importantly, perhaps, we'd need to understand whether Spitalfields pimps would have had the likes of Martha Tabram, Annie Chapman, Elisabeth Stride or Catherine Eddowes (etc) on their books - or Mary Kelly, for that matter. Generalising from the "oldest profession" idea might not be as straightforward as it seems.

[Stephen Thomas]

During the reign of Edward I [1239—1307] there was a law of "pimp-tenure" on the Statute Books, whereby tenants had to keep "six damsels" for the use of the lord.

Nice one, Simon.

What fun we have on Casebook

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droit_de_seigneur

[BLUE WIZZARD]

BW,

I'm sure you are at least 10' tall.

Nah, but just a couple more inches and height and weight would be fine--sigh!

Tell you what, we seem to have gotten off on the wrong cadence so let's forget the past few messages and start anew, okay?

Don.

That sounds just great to me, looking forward to more of your writing.

BW

[seanr]

There was little in the way of organised prostitution in Spitalfields at all at that time, Wiz. The "unfortunates" who predominated in the area were casual street-walkers, and there were very few "brothels" (in the modern sense) to be found there.

Oh my God. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha a-ha ha ha ha ha ha.

How did we ever get a state where someone could make a statement this? Blimey!

[c.d.]

Oh my God. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha a-ha ha ha ha ha ha.

How did we ever get a state where someone could make a statement this? Blimey!

Well it sounds pretty accurate to me. Could you elaborate on your reaction, Sean?

c.d.

[seanr]

Well it sounds pretty accurate to me. Could you elaborate on your reaction, Sean?

c.d.

So, for a couple of simple examples.

Constance Flower neé Rothschild, Lady Battersea founded the Jewish Ladies’ Society for Preventative and Rescue Work in 1885, the organisation was to eventually evolve into the Jewish Association for the Protection of Girls and Women. and take an active international role in combatting sex trafficking. The initial focus in 1885 was on the East End of London and immigrant women who were 'at risk' of being coerced into sex work.

Frederick Charrington, a member of the brewing family, left the trade and took up with the temperance movement, being active in the East End the work he undertook included attempting to counter the vice trade. He's been credited by some with closing down 200 brothels (I can't find a good source for that number, but it sounds like an extra-ordinarily impressive figure if organised sex work did not exist). He wrote to the Pall Mall Gazzette a letter which was published on the 22nd November 1888 in which he wrote:

I trust you will allow me, now that public attention is again aroused by another Whitechapel horror, to say I hope something will be done to reach those who are second only in criminality to the murderer himself - namely, the class of infamous scoundrels who are commonly known as "bullies." These are the wretches who live on the earnings of these poor creatures, and who, in the midst of all this terror, have driven them out to their awful doom that they may eat the bread of idleness and sink themselves still deeper with drink.

For the statement 'little in the way of organised prostitution in Spitalfields' to be true, these campaigns would have to have been founded to combat something which simply did not exist. These are just two campaigns, there were more. To say nothing of George Duckworth's observation in his walk around Spitalfields for Charles Booth's poverty map that the 'doubles' in Dorset Street were really brothels.

I am more than half of opinion that the Whitechapel murders and outrages are after all not the work of any single ruffian, but simply the atrocities of the bullies who swarm at the East-end and live off the shame of the wretched women they hound into the streets.

Mr. Frederick Charrington bears witness in the Echo to a case in which a child of fifteen had been decoyed into a house of ill-fame and threatened with murder it she tried to escape; and it seems to me as likely as not that each of the murders may have been the outcome of the fiendish rage of some monster disappointed that his appetite for drink could not be gratified out of the earnings of his victims.

How is it these villains cannot be dealt with by the law? The police know them - they swarm ontside the low public-houses, and make the streets dangerous for passers-by. Why does not some member of Parliament bring in a short Act empowering the police to arrest these filthy traders in vice. whose daily language is the best proof of their ability and disposition to add mutilation to murder? If" Jack the Ripper" is a reality, I really, wish he would let the women alone and slaughter a bully or two instead.

It is frankly incredible to me that the non-existence of organised sex work in the East End of London in the late nineteenth century, has become the standard view. It is a view that on the basis of the evidence seems untenable.