What about the pimps?

[Frank]

Hello!

Did the Whitechapel prostitutes have pimps in 1888 especially the victims? What was their reaction to the murders? Did they start any actions tu hunt down the killer? Was any of the pimps ever suspected by the police?

Best regards,
Frank

[kensei]

I'm no expert, this is just my understanding from what I've studied. Of course there were pimps, also known as "bully boys," and that was inevitable. But there were also a lot of freelancing prostitutes, which most if not all of the Ripper's victims seem to have been. A pimp named Billy portrayed in the 1988 "Jack the Ripper" miniseries starring Michael Caine was a completely fictional character. There has been speculation as to whether John McCarthy- Mary Kelly's landlord- was actually her pimp as well. I personally don't think so. There would have been many women operating on their own, as well as numerous pimps and gangs pressuring them to conform under threat of violence. Such was life in Whitechapel.

[miss marple]

The canonical five were not professional prostitutes, that is they were were not full time, did no operate from brothels, and in steady relationships.Mary who had been a full time prostitute,stopped when in a relationship and went back when Joe left.
These women were alcoholics, or drank to relieve the dreariness of their lives, Occasional prostitution paid for their drink or bed for the night.These women were at at the bottom of the pile and had perversely had more freedom to drink, whore or sleep when they liked, unlike their worn out but virtuous sisters slaving in sweatshops or factories.Also they were not servicing twenty or thirty men a day in a brothel. The fourpenny pittence they earned from a shag covered their drink or bed but would not keep a pimp. No pimp would tolerate such lazy habits.
West End girls charged between 5 and 10 shillings.Upmarket brothels could get much more.
Many of the younger and prettier Ipswich victims prostituted themselves because of a drug habit, they needed a fixed amount each day,
they did not have pimps.
Miss Marple

[Frank]

So the pimps were not concerned as long as non of their "own" girls was attacked?
I suppose that the murders were "bad for the business" and would think that they tried some actions to normalise the "business climate", i.e. keep eyes and ears open and catch the killer.

[Sam Flynn]

The canonical five were not professional prostitutes, that is they were were not full time, did no operate from brothels... These women were alcoholics, or drank to relieve the dreariness of their lives, Occasional prostitution paid for their drink or bed for the night.These women were at at the bottom of the pile

Good post, Miss M.

[Christine]

One thing that I have found lacking in much of the Ripper Literature is a description of what the average man on the street was doing. Based on the press reports, a lot of people were upset, upset enough to follow drunken homeless women around just in case something might happen. The only clear example of know of this happening is George Hutchinson, and he apparently made such a botch of it that he's a top ripper suspect himself. It's all somewhat odd to me.

[BLUE WIZZARD]

So the pimps were not concerned as long as non of their "own" girls was attacked?
I suppose that the murders were "bad for the business" and would think that they tried some actions to normalise the "business climate", i.e. keep eyes and ears open and catch the killer.

Frank,

What if the pimps were trying to take control of their turf and the part time prostitutes were interfering with business, I guess you could beat them up or kill them as a warning to stay away from their turf.

Fear is a strong message.

BW

[Supe]

Blue Wizzard and the rest,

At the risk of insulting some people, steep yourselves in some period social history rather than applying your 21st C conceptions. If nothing else, read Mayhew (he is actually fun to read). At the least carefully read what Miss Marple wrote above. There were no pimps for these people, certainly not in the modern sense, and (just in case someone asks) there were no fly guys riding around in pink hansoms with fur trim.

Don.

[BLUE WIZZARD]

SUPE,

History

Although the actual origin of the word is unknown, the term "pimp" was introduced to the English language early in the 17th century. At the time, it meant "a person who arranges opportunities for sexual intercourse with a prostitute." This is still the common meaning of the word when you hear someone talking about a pimp. In some instances, the word could also be used to refer to someone who does well with the ladies.

Seems to me that pimps were in operation at the time of the whitechapel murders, perhaps by some other name as quoted by kensei.

And if you read my post as carefully as you read Miss Marple's post then you would understand what I was talking about.

Can you prove that there were no pimps or "bully boys," at that time in whitechapel?

Not just because Miss Marple said so.

BW

[c.d.]

Hi Wizzard,

No, I can't prove that there were no pimps in Whitechapel at that time but it would seem that as Miss Marple indicated if they had to split what money was made both the prostitute and the pimp would starve to death. Now it might be possible that a group of prostitutes had somebody who protected them and steered customers their way, but I just can't see it on an individual basis especially for women as poor and destitute as the victims.

c.d.

c.d.

[Stephen Thomas]

I searched 'pimp' on OLD BAILEY ONLINE and there's not much there.

This is well worth a read, though

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t19061119-66&div=t19061119-66&terms=pimp#highlight

[BLUE WIZZARD]

Hi Wizzard,

No, I can't prove that there were no pimps in Whitechapel at that time but it would seem that as Miss Marple indicated if they had to split what money was made both the prostitute and the pimp would starve to death. Now it might be possible that a group of prostitutes had somebody who protected them and steered customers their way, but I just can't see it on an individual basis especially for women as poor and destitute as the victims.

c.d.

c.d.

c.d.

The Unfortunates of Whitechapel were on there own, with no pimps to work with them, now if they happened to be working the johns on the corners that the pimps were in control of, or the pimps lay claim to, then the pimps were upset to see them on their turf, taking the money away from them.

Like selling newspapers on a corner and having another paperboy tell you to get off his corner or he will harm you.

BW

[Supe]

BW,

Can you prove that there were no pimps or "bully boys," at that time in whitechapel?

Wouldn't waste the time. And if you read my post you'll see I was decrying the application of a modernist conception of a pimp to the LVP in 1888. Nor are you the only one who does it. Indeed, one focus of my presentation at the 2007 Wolverhampton Conference was the increasing tendency of viewing the events through a 21st C prism. That gives a skewed picture, at best. But, as C.D. just posted, clearly the Ripper victims were at the bottom of the totem pole and any suggestion they had pimps flies in the face of what we know about Whitechapel society and mores.

If you want to start looking for JtR you first must have a real understanding of theworld in which he operated. And that goes for you, for me and for anyone else.

Don.,

[miss marple]

Blue WIZZARD,
I have been obsessed with the 19th century and London history since I was a child. I come from a long line of Londoners, some of whom were east end immigrants. I have read Mayhew, plus many other accounts, contemporary and other wise about London in the.19th century, also novels, biographies, magazines, euphemera. Plus a knowledge of the art, interior decoration, costume , social history etc, that is my hobby.
There are many people on this site with far more knowledge than me, about so many subjects that sometimes I am awed by their depth of knowledge.
But what we all have in common is an interest in the period.
Supe is right, you cannot bring 21st century attitudes and impose them on the LVP.
If you want to understand Victorian prostitution, you have to read Henry Mayhew as a starter. His massive sociological study of London Labour and the London Poor plus criminals prostitutes etc will tell you everything you want to know about the period. His interviews with various characters are like a time machine.
Prostitution in LVP was a female controlled industry, brothals being run by madames ex whores , they employed bully boys as enforcers, but the women ruled the roost.
It was not until the rise of the Mafia and other criminal gangs in the 20th century that prostitution became the game of gangsters who exercise a controlling regime of terror over the girls they exploit.
Miss Marple

[BLUE WIZZARD]

Supe,

Let me get this straight, now if I were to go by your understanding of Old Victorian investigation then it would be OK.

What were they called if they were not called pimps? you seem to know something we do not.

Like it or not, just because it does not fit into your line of thinking, does not make it wrong.

Why do you think that you are a 100% and everyone else is not?

It's not a Napoleon complex is it?

BW