The International Working Mens Club and the GSG.

I did not expect my question to cause such a debate. Quite pleased it did though. I just wanted to clafiry what I was thinking when I asked the question. My theory (if you can call it that) was that the GSG may have been written out of Jacks frustration at being disturbed with Stride by a jewish man. Rather than some greater conspiracy theory involving anti-semitism!
That is of course assuming that Stride was a victim of JtR and that the GSG was written by the Ripper...................

Hi Kate,

Its obviously a contentious issue, because its quite possible Warren ordered the erasure of Jack the Rippers handwriting before it could be preserved in a photo.

Many would like it to be simply grafitti from some other stranger, placed there for inexplicable reasons and with inexplicable meaning. There is however a logical answer which many seem to bypass. The cloth and grafitto were not seen there until the second pass by Long after Kates death, more than 1 hour later. Many would have you believe he just missed seeing anything. Possible, sure.

But few seem to interpret Long's not seeing anything as evidence that nothing was there yet. I find that odd myself, but Ive learned that many Ripperologists often dismiss any ideas that deflate the notion of a Canonical Group of 5, regardless of the logic offered. Like nothing else in these stories had meaning but Macnaughtens grouping of victims.

Best regards.

[KatBradshaw]

Wow!

I did not expect my question to cause such a debate. Quite pleased it did though. I just wanted to clafiry what I was thinking when I asked the question. My theory (if you can call it that) was that the GSG may have been written out of Jacks frustration at being disturbed with Stride by a jewish man. Rather than some greater conspiracy theory involving anti-semitism!
That is of course assuming that Stride was a victim of JtR and that the GSG was written by the Ripper...................

Just a note regarding Sams informative view on the religious or ethnic breakdown of the area.....

A disparaging remark...which in literal terms the message was, mispelling the word "Juwes", has little if anything to do with the number of Jews in that immediate area. The spelling indicates semi-literate gentile, whether Juwes or Juewes, and the proximity of the message to a piece of evidence of a murder can not be disgarded because many Jews lived nearby.

Claire.....PC Long was there, no-one here was....and saw the items in concert if you will, and no-one here can dispute that his opinion was that they were linked. Sure he could have been wrong, but no-one has ever made a valid, substantial case that he was.

Warren was surely hated by most local Socialist Jews after Trafalgar Square in 87, and his decision to erase it before properly recording it as evidence reflects his own lack of comfort with the local populations opinion of him.....not of the potential uproar in general. Riots dont start with unclear messages that may even be supportive of Jews for all we know...they start when the senior man investigating murders makes something of a connnection with Jews using a chalk message.....a risk he decided against taking.

If you dont think the police were on the verge of being overrun due to strong anti-police sentiments, look at Pizers arrest. Or Squibbys.

Best regards all.

[The Grave Maurice]

Now that this thread has reached its natural conclusion, I’d like to make an off-topic comment. I join Anna (post #44) in welcoming Seecomber (post #23). I like Seecomber's point that Elizabeth Long may have been confused with Long Liz, not because I think there is anything to it, but because, in all the years I have been reading about JtR, I never made the connection between Liz Long and Long Liz. Once it’s pointed out, it’s obvious, but I never saw it. It just goes to show that fresh eyes can bring fresh insights to the mystery.

[auspirograph]

The main problem in trying to go from the Jewish elements of the "Double Event" to saying the Ripper murders had "everything" to do with the Jews, is that in the other three canonical murders, the Jewish strands are harder to find.

The Polly Nichols murder site in Buck's Row was south of an old Jewish cemetery but hardly could be said to be in "close proximity" to it, to quote a phrase in this thread.

It's hard to find Jewish associations in the Chapman case, apart from the fact that some of the people residing on Hanbury Street were Jewish.

And the only possible Jewish connection I know of in the Kelly case was that the man described by Hutchinson could be described as Jewish-looking. As an aside, Barnett is a common Jewish name, although Mary Kelly's lover appears to have been of Irish background and not Jewish.

If anyone knows of other Jewish connections to the canonical murders other than the well-known ones on the night of the Double Event and those that I have described above, I would be interested to hear about them.

All the best

Chris George

Good points Chris and a fair and interesting summary of the Jewish elements, or lack of, in the canonical murders. Certainly however, there were early Jewish suspects in the press reports of the murders of Chapman and Nichols that had prefabricated Jewish suspicions throughout the East End.

You appear to be implying then, because of a lack of Jewish 'localities' or indications in the other events, that Anderson was indeed wrong in declaring the certainty that the police had a firm Jewish suspect albeit without evidence.

And I'm not so sure that Berner Street could be regarded as a 'Jewish' murder in view of the fact that at that time the Worker's Club was a socialist establishment attended by Jews without affiliations to the Orthodox.

Anderson was quite specific, was he not, that he meant a suspect of Jewish decent not religion so that a case can be made for an Anarchist from Berner Street. The only problem with that is the timing because on the night of the 'double event', if Stride was indeed a Ripper victim, the Berner Street Club was under notice of the police not for political violence as is assumed, but for disturbances of Socialist idealists against fellow Orthodox Jews.

What then is your view on Anderson's statements in regards the 'Jewish elements' or lack thereof?

Regards
Spiro

[Ben]

Hi Chris,

If, as per my contention, the killer sought out opportunities to fuel the suspicions that had already been cast in a Jewish direction, the Tabram and Nichols murders don't really "count" since they pre-dated the Leather Apron brouhaha. Hanbury Street was also relatively early days, although there was an actual leather apron present at the crime scene, along with a witness who described a foreigner despite having only acquired a rear view. Both quite convenient for the ripper if he wasn't Jewish or foreign himself, and it may have been in the wake of that murder that he perceived an advantage in "helping" those suspicions along, if provided with easy opportunities to do so.

The double event we've already discussed, leaving us with the Kelly murder, and of interest to us within the context of the Astrakhan Man description is the fact that not all Jew-implicating efforts needed to be purely geographical.

Just my tuppence.

Cheers,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

The Polly Nichols murder site in Buck's Row was south of an old Jewish cemetery but hardly could be said to be in "close proximity" to it, to quote a phrase in this thread.

I wouldn't bank on it, Chris

[ChrisGeorge]

Hello all!
I was watching a doc I have on DVD again and a thought came to me. Stride was killed near a Jewish social club and then on the same night a message believed by some to have been written by the killer makes a reference to Jews. It struck me that this may be more than a coincidence. I just wondered what other peoples thoughts might be. Appologies if this is an idea that has already banded about.

Hello Kat

The main problem in trying to go from the Jewish elements of the "Double Event" to saying the Ripper murders had "everything" to do with the Jews, is that in the other three canonical murders, the Jewish strands are harder to find.

The Polly Nichols murder site in Buck's Row was south of an old Jewish cemetery but hardly could be said to be in "close proximity" to it, to quote a phrase in this thread.

It's hard to find Jewish associations in the Chapman case, apart from the fact that some of the people residing on Hanbury Street were Jewish.

And the only possible Jewish connection I know of in the Kelly case was that the man described by Hutchinson could be described as Jewish-looking. As an aside, Barnett is a common Jewish name, although Mary Kelly's lover appears to have been of Irish background and not Jewish.

If anyone knows of other Jewish connections to the canonical murders other than the well-known ones on the night of the Double Event and those that I have described above, I would be interested to hear about them.

All the best

Chris George

[Sam Flynn]

In very very close proxmity!

Simple as that, I'd say.

Oh, for f*k's sake.

[Ben]

Not clubs though, Gareth.

Not places were Jews were known to congrate in numbers in the small hours. If you were looking for such a place in that area for whatever reason on the night of the doube event, the two most obvious places were to be found close to where the two murders were committed.

Best,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

"Hey, lots of Jews awake in this area. If I commit a crime nearby, maybe they'll all think a Jew dunnit? Or if I dump the apron here...?"

But such was true of practically all of that part of London, Ben - as a tactic, it's pretty redundant.

[Ben]

Indeed, it is, Ben. However, if Eddowes was killed "in close proximity" to the Imperial, where does that leave Stride?

In very very close proxmity!

Simple as that, I'd say.

[Ben]

Hi Gareth,

However, this doesn't mean that we should try to find anti-semitic intent in everything the Ripper may or may not have done - especially if, in so doing, we have to resort to tortuous logic to make things fit what is already a speculative theory.

Ah, but I don't believe there was any anti-semitic intent on the part of the ripper. I've suggested that he was fully aware of the extent to which the Jews had become scapegoated for the crimes - from "Leather Apron" onwards - and that he sought to take full personal advantage of this via the (readily available) opportunities to keep that ball rolling; opportunities that may have partially influenced his killing venues. "Hey, lots of Jews awake in this area. If I commit a crime nearby, maybe they'll all think a Jew dunnit? Or if I dump the apron here...?" That wouldn't be tortuous logic. That would be a prudent self-preserving initiative.

Consider the number of people who have speculated over the years that a chap from the club may have murdered Stride. My contention is that the killer may well have been hoping to convey that precise impression...without necessarily harbouring any personal animosity towards the Jews.

No tortuous logic involved there.

Best regards,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

But, Gareth, surely "close" is context-specific, isn't it?

Indeed, it is, Ben. However, if Eddowes was killed "in close proximity" to the Imperial, where does that leave Stride? Are we to say that she was killed "in the very depths" of the International Working Men's Educational Club? If you want "close proximity", look no further than Berner Street. We need another adjective to describe the relationship of that club on Duke Street and the body at the bottom corner of Mitre Square.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Ben,

Well, it's clear that the police subscribed to this view too, as witness Warren's decision to expunge the message. He later expressed the view that the message was deliberate subterfuge designed to incriminate the Jews, as did Donald Swanson, Henry Smith.

They may have been right about the graffito being anti-semitic, by dint of which it might have inflamed local passions irrespective of whether Jack wrote it. It's association - coincidental or otherwise - with the apron would have posed a reasonable risk in that regard.

However, this doesn't mean that we should try to find anti-semitic intent in everything the Ripper may or may not have done - especially if, in so doing, we have to resort to tortuous logic to make things fit what was already a speculative theory.