The International Working Mens Club and the GSG.

[caz]

Well Simon, that just makes it even less likely from where I'm sitting that any local passions would have been in serious danger of being inflamed by reading the message while Bettles was standing in front of it awaiting further instructions. "Ah, this means that the Whitechapel murderer woz 'ere and must be a Jew" (even though there's no apron, no sign of a crime, and no mention of murder in a bit of commonplace graffiti that anyone could have written and just happens to be on the wall behind where this copper is standing).

I ask ya!

Love,

Caz
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[Simon Wood]

Hi Caz,

With only PC Bettles to guard it single-handedly, the GSG was there for all to see between 2.55 and 3.15 am while PC Long went to Commercial Street police station with the piece of apron and returned to Goulston Street with an Inspector. They then set off for Leman Street police station, and once again only the stalwart PC Bettles stood between civil order and a potential Jewish uprising until reinforcements arrived with a sponge.

I ask ya!

Regards,

Simon

[Sam Flynn]

Caz - I think we're arguing at cross purposes, but the subject is so opaque that I'm not entirely sure.

Best leave it there, whilst (I think) we're in agreement...

[caz]

A month down the line, I'm not sure I can even remember what we were discussing, Caz. Suffice to say I'd suggest that you didn't get my point either... whatever it was

Hi Sam,

Your point was that local passions could have been inflamed had the message: 'in respect of the Ripper being a Jew' (your own words and underlining) been allowed to remain long enough for a photo.

As Simon says, the whole kerfuffle of the police presence, while sponge-dithering, could easily have led potential rioters in the first instance to conclude that Jack had been there. But presumably no passers-by got to read the actual message or learn about the 'Juwes' reference while the police were dithering, and there would also have been no question of buggering off and leaving it intact, uncovered and unguarded to inflame local passions. The three options were: erase all, erase 'Juwes' only, or conceal and guard closely until full daylight.

So how would anyone passing by have seen the message as 'Jack the Jew woz 'ere' (once the apron and its association had been whisked away) unless their passions were already so inflamed by the police presence that they were prepared to use force against the force to discover what the message was?

That was my point. I think I agree with Simon that the whole episode makes little sense. If Jack was not Jewish and didn't write the message, the police seem to have been doing his work for him and making the biggest deal they could out of it.

Love,

Caz
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[Sam Flynn]

If you are still not getting it, a month down the line, may I suggest you are just not trying hard enough? I'm getting more of it than I can cope with right now.

A month down the line, I'm not sure I can even remember what we were discussing, Caz. Suffice to say I'd suggest that you didn't get my point either... whatever it was

[Jon Guy]

Hello Simon

My thoughts are that although the Goulston St affair probably spread like wild fire there were still two murder sites for the mob to wake up to and congregate at. At least there was nothing for the locals to march to on mass in Goulston St, which would have been the third port of call for most sightsee-ers that morning.

The memory and threat of repetition of the Hanbury St mob would have been very real, but it would not be likely for such a mob to form days later after the Inquest.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Caz,

The police couldn't have drawn more attention to the GSG from passers-by if they had tried, gathered around it as they were with a sponge whilst dithering about taking a photograph.

And what was the point of rubbing it out when, at the inquest, Jewish sensibilities were ignored when the implications and spelling of the GSG were discussed in detail?

The whole episode makes little sense.

Regards,

Simon

[caz]

But that's just it! People did know that "Jack woz 'ere", even after the apron had been taken away.

Hi Sam,

If the message itself didn't tell anyone, and the apron was whisked away, the only way for potential rioters to have their passions inflamed by the fact that Jack had been there would have been if the police had made an announcement to that effect - thus completely defeating the object of erasing the message to prevent a potential riot on the 'Juweish' front.

If you are still not getting it, a month down the line, may I suggest you are just not trying hard enough? I'm getting more of it than I can cope with right now.

Love,

Caz
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[joelhall]

sounds to me like it was written by a jew...

it merely says the jews wont accept blame for something. the wording seems so blindingly obvious, & i suspect the various translations are due to over-thinking it. sounds the same as 'we didnt do nothing' 'i aint done nothing' 'we aint gonna be blamed for nothing', etc, etc.

pretty common (in all senses of the word) use of language round here. just like youd pick up if youd lived around the east end for years...

reminds me of the 'oh murder' thing... which ive always known to be a way of just saying 'oh f**k'.

if this was in response to an actual murder, id expect they would have added 'oh, i say, you murderous rotter....'

ah well, well still be arguing over this one into the next century i expect

joel

Hello all,

As to the question of whether the GSG is anti-semetic, one literal translation I believe is, and even if the Ripper wrote it, its not at all a revelation of Jack's ethnicity. Its a matter of correcting the records for something the "Juwes" are evading blame for. "Jack" could be anything from a red haired Protestant Irishman to a tribal American Sioux Indian based on the writing. One thing is revealed at least, if he wrote it, he is almost certainly not a Jew. The mispelling, plus the context of the message when juxtaposed with a group of Jews who blamed a "madman at large" for a murder in their yard, makes a good argument for a semi-literate gentile author....whether the killer from Mitre Square or not.

Best regards all.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Sam,

You're still not getting it.

You're telling me, Caz! Oh... you're on about this apron business

No local passions or suspicions could have been inflamed by the message sans pinny, for the reasons you claim, unless someone had thoughtfully informed passers-by that "Jack woz 'ere"...

But that's just it! People did know that "Jack woz 'ere", even after the apron had been taken away.

[caz]

Hi Sam,

You're still not getting it. No local passions or suspicions could have been inflamed by the message sans pinny, for the reasons you claim, unless someone had thoughtfully informed passers-by (while waiting for the daylight that would have enabled a photographer to do his work) that "Jack woz 'ere" and had 'announced his presence' with a calling card.

How do you think anyone would have acquired this 'simple knowledge' at that early stage of the game? I thought one of the main arguments against Jack writing the message was that there was absolutely nothing in it about the murders, let alone, as you put it, in respect of the Ripper being a Jew. Before the general public cottoned on to any "association" with the pinny, it was supposedly just a simple "Jews go home" or "leave us Jews alone" sentiment. How would that amount to Jack announcing his presence?

Love,

Caz
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[Tom_Wescott]

Warren's excuse might have been applicable, but it was still very, very weak. I believe his superiors felt the same which is why they launched their investigation into his actions just days before he "handed in" his resignation.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Sam Flynn]

I’m surprised to see you falling for this illogical old chestnut that the risk of local passions being inflamed by the message was because of its association with the apron.

Perhaps I should have been clearer, Caz. What I meant, specifically, was that local passions, or suspicions, in respect of the Ripper being a Jew might have been inflamed. That Jack had announced his presence in the doorway, whether by apron, graffito or both, may have been sufficient for folk to reinforce their prejudices in respect of the Ripper's ethnicity, and this would have been the case whether the apron was still there or not. The simple knowledge that "Jack woz 'ere" was sufficient to incur the risk of a connection being made - irrespective of whether Jack wrote the message, and irrespective of what it actually meant.

[caz]

They may have been right about the graffito being anti-semitic, by dint of which it might have inflamed local passions irrespective of whether Jack wrote it. It's association - coincidental or otherwise - with the apron would have posed a reasonable risk in that regard.

If Long didn't immediately notice the writing the second time, then maybe it was because he was unsighted (e.g., his beat went north ? south and the writing was "behind" him on the northern pillar of the doorway, or vice versa), or the writing wasn't particularly conspicuous in the gloom. It may have been a combination of both factors.

If so, and the same lighting/sighting conditions applied to the bobby on the previous shift, then it's quite possible that the writing was on the wall already, unnoticed, before Long even started his beat.

Hi Sam,

Coming late to this discussion…

I’m surprised to see you falling for this illogical old chestnut that the risk of local passions being inflamed by the message was because of its association with the apron.

Remind me what apron and what association, once the offending article had been whisked away from beneath the writing? PC Long was hardly standing there with a megaphone, announcing in his best League of Gentlemen voice: “If you are local, and come in your gangs of one and two to have your passions inflamed, gather round and have a butchers at this bloody apron left by the murderer”, making it necessary to erase the message before anyone could take up his generous invitation and make a dangerous "association" between one and t’other.

Furthermore, if the writing was not particularly conspicuous in the gloom and had been missed by Long (twice), and had also been there for some time, unnoticed or ignored by residents, passers-by and previous beat bobbies alike, how likely would it really have been to cause a riot anytime soon, with the pinny safely out of the picture?

Yes, the circumstantial evidence allows for the writing to have been there earlier and just not noticed (except perhaps by a sharp-eyed, sharp-witted Jack, who immediately thought it was a good idea to dump the apron under it - although personally I think that’s resorting to the most tortuous logic, in order to attribute the message to anyone but our man on the spot); but none of that evidence - not a shred - indicates that the writing was there earlier, or arrived before Jack.

The other argument, that all those Jewish ‘connections’ to the murders would have been par for the course in any area with a high concentration of Jewish residents and businesses, and therefore nothing more than we would expect with the Whitechapel series, is somewhat dented by the fact that the Jewish aspects themselves are very much concentrated on that one eventful night, being relatively few and far between otherwise, and arguably less obvious. Add to that the evidence that the majority of people in Jack’s killing field were not Jewish, and we are back to the other murder nights actually being more representative of the area by not featuring many notably Jew-specific aspects, while double event night was awash with them by comparison.

Still could have been coincidence, because one murder night will inevitably feature more than any other. But if one is prepared to allow for Jack to have been in the majority, ie non-Jewish, not living in a cave, reasonably aware of his own publicity and able to pick up tips from it, then it’s at least feasible that for his next outing after Hanbury St and the whole Leather Apron business he could see how it would be to his advantage to concentrate the minds of the three ps - police, press and public - onto Jewish suspects if he got the chance. It may even have influenced him to walk along Berner St (perhaps with a piece of chalk in his pocket) to see what opportunities he might get to stir something up in that direction. Seeing Liz there may have stirred up something else into the bargain.

I agree with Ben (hiya Hutch Bunny ) that there’s nothing unduly fanciful in allowing an opportunist serial killer to have some kind of blame-shifting strategy in mind, let alone ‘untenable’. Jack may not have been Brain of Britain, but he still manages to keep the best brains in the dark about how his own worked.

Love,

Caz
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