The International Working Mens Club and the GSG.

[Fisherman]

My fourteen year old boy is a throwing champion, and he can throw a 300 gram weight around 55-60 metres (which is a good deal longer than I can throw it). Does that mean that we are speaking about one and a half to one and three quarters of a stone´s throw here, David?
Or does it perhaps mean that the thread is turning slightly silly?

The best,
Fisherman

[claire]

Oh, sorry Ben...I thought the first thought about the message was that it was going to inflame one or other sentiment about or amongst Jews in the area...like, they saw the word Jews and thought, oh, *&$%, get it off, quick, that's the last thing we need, in much the same way as police hearts sink when they see some piece of nonsense yackering about Asians or whoever in the vicinity of an offence.

In any case, my example was crap. I should have just said that the graffito read, 'Women are whores.' That's more of a comparison, and far too generic (like 'Jews/Juwes') to mean much to anyone.

[DVV]

Hi DVV,

Hmm. Sam said it better than me. 'Jewish coincidences?' There are many, many more links to the gentile East End in the events of not only the night of the double event and, I daresay, a whole bunch of other, smaller, subgroups too (dockers, dossers, horses and hookers).

Claire,
I'm not narrow-minded that much, and I understand what Sam and you are objecting about coincidences. But I still think you are a little bit too flat.
30 sept, 2 women were killed near to a Jewish club, one suspect is reported to have shout: "Lipski", Stride's body was discovered by members of the club, Lawende was a Jew and when he saw Eddowes, he was going home from a Jewish club, and then we have this "Juwes" in the grafitto, with the only clue ever left by the murderer behind him (and this is enough to ask ourselves: was it purposely? ).
That is just why some of the thoughts expressed on this thread do not deserved the very flat replies they received, in my humble opinion.

Amitiés,
David

Amitiés,
david

[Sam Flynn]

We can be even more precise. "Within a short walk" is quite vague, it can be a 5 minutes walk.

Within a minute's walk, then. Or - if you're Ben - within 30 second's walk. Not "in close proximity", for crying out loud. My coffee mug is "in close proximity" to me. Martyn the accountant is "next door", so I'd class him as "nearby". Billy the dentist, eight doors away and roughly a 30-second walk from my house, is certainly not "in close proximity", and neither is the postbox some 40 yards down the hill.

[claire]

Oh, David, absolutely. It's worth considering. It's simply that, having considered it (and thinking about how Londoners have carried on, and the topography of the place), I remain unconvinced that there is a link. But, sheesh, mine is but one opinion and, I must confess, I find the debate interesting, if only to see how differently folk interpret the same information.
Of course, if it was a blood stained apron that said, 'Kowalski's Bagel Bakery,' then I'd say you have a decent Jewish link.

Sorry, maybe I'm responsible for making the thread silly

[Ben]

Hi Claire,

I thought the first thought about the message was that it was going to inflame one or other sentiment about or amongst Jews in the area...like, they saw the word Jews and thought, oh, *&$%, get it off, quick, that's the last thing we need, in much the same way as police hearts sink when they see some piece of nonsense yackering about Asians or whoever in the vicinity of an offence.

Well, it's clear that the police subscribed to this view too, as witness Warren's decision to expunge the message. He later expressed the view that the message was deliberate subterfuge designed to incriminate the Jews, as did Donald Swanson, Henry Smith.

Regards,
Ben

[DVV]

My fourteen year old boy is a throwing champion, and he can throw a 300 gram weight around 55-60 metres (which is a good deal longer than I can throw it). Does that mean that we are speaking about one and a half to one and three quarters of a stone´s throw here, David?
Or does it perhaps mean that the thread is turning slightly silly?

The best,
Fisherman

Mr Fish,
a "walking distance" is very vague, and that is why I suggested a "stone's throw" distance.
As far as I know (from what I learnt on this thread, including the map from Sam), 55-60 metres could be the very distance between the 2 spots. Whether the discrepancy is a very unsignificant one. On the contrary, the expression "within a short walk" can suggest a quite longer way...Indeed, it can be a five minutes walk (to say the least) - instead of 20 seconds suggested by Ben (and even if it is 1 minute, the discrepancy would be important.
So I don't think this thread is becoming silly, and reading my posts you will see that I merely say that the events and the locations allow us to ask questions. That's all.

Amitiés,
David

[Ben]

Within a minute's walk, then. Or - if you're Ben - within 30 second's walk. Not "in close proximity", for crying out loud. My coffee mug is "in close proximity" to me.

But, Gareth, surely "close" is context-specific, isn't it? England is in "close proximity" to France in terms of a global scale, Mitre Square is "close" to Duke Street in the context of Tower Hamlets, and your coffee mug is close to you within the confines of your desk.

Cheers,
Ben

[Fisherman]

Sorry if I upset you, David. It´s just that I think that a discussion whether a distance is a stone´s throw, a very short walk, a close proximity, half a minutes walk, a Usain Bolt dash away etcetera, cannot possibly avoid getting somewhat Monty Pythonesque.
One should never mock good intentions, though, so I bow to you in regret of my reckless behaviour.

The very best, David!
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Ben,

Well, it's clear that the police subscribed to this view too, as witness Warren's decision to expunge the message. He later expressed the view that the message was deliberate subterfuge designed to incriminate the Jews, as did Donald Swanson, Henry Smith.

They may have been right about the graffito being anti-semitic, by dint of which it might have inflamed local passions irrespective of whether Jack wrote it. It's association - coincidental or otherwise - with the apron would have posed a reasonable risk in that regard.

However, this doesn't mean that we should try to find anti-semitic intent in everything the Ripper may or may not have done - especially if, in so doing, we have to resort to tortuous logic to make things fit what was already a speculative theory.

[Sam Flynn]

But, Gareth, surely "close" is context-specific, isn't it?

Indeed, it is, Ben. However, if Eddowes was killed "in close proximity" to the Imperial, where does that leave Stride? Are we to say that she was killed "in the very depths" of the International Working Men's Educational Club? If you want "close proximity", look no further than Berner Street. We need another adjective to describe the relationship of that club on Duke Street and the body at the bottom corner of Mitre Square.

[Ben]

Hi Gareth,

However, this doesn't mean that we should try to find anti-semitic intent in everything the Ripper may or may not have done - especially if, in so doing, we have to resort to tortuous logic to make things fit what is already a speculative theory.

Ah, but I don't believe there was any anti-semitic intent on the part of the ripper. I've suggested that he was fully aware of the extent to which the Jews had become scapegoated for the crimes - from "Leather Apron" onwards - and that he sought to take full personal advantage of this via the (readily available) opportunities to keep that ball rolling; opportunities that may have partially influenced his killing venues. "Hey, lots of Jews awake in this area. If I commit a crime nearby, maybe they'll all think a Jew dunnit? Or if I dump the apron here...?" That wouldn't be tortuous logic. That would be a prudent self-preserving initiative.

Consider the number of people who have speculated over the years that a chap from the club may have murdered Stride. My contention is that the killer may well have been hoping to convey that precise impression...without necessarily harbouring any personal animosity towards the Jews.

No tortuous logic involved there.

Best regards,
Ben

[Ben]

Indeed, it is, Ben. However, if Eddowes was killed "in close proximity" to the Imperial, where does that leave Stride?

In very very close proxmity!

Simple as that, I'd say.

[Sam Flynn]

"Hey, lots of Jews awake in this area. If I commit a crime nearby, maybe they'll all think a Jew dunnit? Or if I dump the apron here...?"

But such was true of practically all of that part of London, Ben - as a tactic, it's pretty redundant.

[Ben]

Not clubs though, Gareth.

Not places were Jews were known to congrate in numbers in the small hours. If you were looking for such a place in that area for whatever reason on the night of the doube event, the two most obvious places were to be found close to where the two murders were committed.

Best,
Ben