The International Working Mens Club and the GSG.

[Fisherman]

Sorry if I upset you, David. It´s just that I think that a discussion whether a distance is a stone´s throw, a very short walk, a close proximity, half a minutes walk, a Usain Bolt dash away etcetera, cannot possibly avoid getting somewhat Monty Pythonesque.
One should never mock good intentions, though, so I bow to you in regret of my reckless behaviour.

The very best, David!
Fisherman

[Ben]

Within a minute's walk, then. Or - if you're Ben - within 30 second's walk. Not "in close proximity", for crying out loud. My coffee mug is "in close proximity" to me.

But, Gareth, surely "close" is context-specific, isn't it? England is in "close proximity" to France in terms of a global scale, Mitre Square is "close" to Duke Street in the context of Tower Hamlets, and your coffee mug is close to you within the confines of your desk.

Cheers,
Ben

[DVV]

My fourteen year old boy is a throwing champion, and he can throw a 300 gram weight around 55-60 metres (which is a good deal longer than I can throw it). Does that mean that we are speaking about one and a half to one and three quarters of a stone´s throw here, David?
Or does it perhaps mean that the thread is turning slightly silly?

The best,
Fisherman

Mr Fish,
a "walking distance" is very vague, and that is why I suggested a "stone's throw" distance.
As far as I know (from what I learnt on this thread, including the map from Sam), 55-60 metres could be the very distance between the 2 spots. Whether the discrepancy is a very unsignificant one. On the contrary, the expression "within a short walk" can suggest a quite longer way...Indeed, it can be a five minutes walk (to say the least) - instead of 20 seconds suggested by Ben (and even if it is 1 minute, the discrepancy would be important.
So I don't think this thread is becoming silly, and reading my posts you will see that I merely say that the events and the locations allow us to ask questions. That's all.

Amitiés,
David

[Ben]

Hi Claire,

I thought the first thought about the message was that it was going to inflame one or other sentiment about or amongst Jews in the area...like, they saw the word Jews and thought, oh, *&$%, get it off, quick, that's the last thing we need, in much the same way as police hearts sink when they see some piece of nonsense yackering about Asians or whoever in the vicinity of an offence.

Well, it's clear that the police subscribed to this view too, as witness Warren's decision to expunge the message. He later expressed the view that the message was deliberate subterfuge designed to incriminate the Jews, as did Donald Swanson, Henry Smith.

Regards,
Ben

[claire]

Oh, David, absolutely. It's worth considering. It's simply that, having considered it (and thinking about how Londoners have carried on, and the topography of the place), I remain unconvinced that there is a link. But, sheesh, mine is but one opinion and, I must confess, I find the debate interesting, if only to see how differently folk interpret the same information.
Of course, if it was a blood stained apron that said, 'Kowalski's Bagel Bakery,' then I'd say you have a decent Jewish link.

Sorry, maybe I'm responsible for making the thread silly

[Sam Flynn]

We can be even more precise. "Within a short walk" is quite vague, it can be a 5 minutes walk.

Within a minute's walk, then. Or - if you're Ben - within 30 second's walk. Not "in close proximity", for crying out loud. My coffee mug is "in close proximity" to me. Martyn the accountant is "next door", so I'd class him as "nearby". Billy the dentist, eight doors away and roughly a 30-second walk from my house, is certainly not "in close proximity", and neither is the postbox some 40 yards down the hill.

[DVV]

Hi DVV,

Hmm. Sam said it better than me. 'Jewish coincidences?' There are many, many more links to the gentile East End in the events of not only the night of the double event and, I daresay, a whole bunch of other, smaller, subgroups too (dockers, dossers, horses and hookers).

Claire,
I'm not narrow-minded that much, and I understand what Sam and you are objecting about coincidences. But I still think you are a little bit too flat.
30 sept, 2 women were killed near to a Jewish club, one suspect is reported to have shout: "Lipski", Stride's body was discovered by members of the club, Lawende was a Jew and when he saw Eddowes, he was going home from a Jewish club, and then we have this "Juwes" in the grafitto, with the only clue ever left by the murderer behind him (and this is enough to ask ourselves: was it purposely? ).
That is just why some of the thoughts expressed on this thread do not deserved the very flat replies they received, in my humble opinion.

Amitiés,
David

Amitiés,
david

[claire]

Oh, sorry Ben...I thought the first thought about the message was that it was going to inflame one or other sentiment about or amongst Jews in the area...like, they saw the word Jews and thought, oh, *&$%, get it off, quick, that's the last thing we need, in much the same way as police hearts sink when they see some piece of nonsense yackering about Asians or whoever in the vicinity of an offence.

In any case, my example was crap. I should have just said that the graffito read, 'Women are whores.' That's more of a comparison, and far too generic (like 'Jews/Juwes') to mean much to anyone.

[Fisherman]

My fourteen year old boy is a throwing champion, and he can throw a 300 gram weight around 55-60 metres (which is a good deal longer than I can throw it). Does that mean that we are speaking about one and a half to one and three quarters of a stone´s throw here, David?
Or does it perhaps mean that the thread is turning slightly silly?

The best,
Fisherman

[Ben]

Hi Claire,

Really? Wow! I think that's really reaching. Your first thought would honestly be that they are related?

First thought - yes, why not?

In your hypothetical scenario, "Lisa's" body was found not far away from a patch of her blood and an accompanying piece of graffiti specifically mentioning her name in a derogatory context. You're saying that your first thought would be that they two weren't related, and the graffiti almost certainly referred to someone else called Lisa? I think that deserves more of a "wow!" than anything I've suggested, in all honesty.

Similarly, the "first thought" amongst the 1888 police seemed to be that the murders and the message were connected. Yes, there's a reasonable argument for the two being unrelated, but it's hardly straying into fantasy or "really reaching" to believe otherwise.

Best regards,
Ben

[DVV]

Ben,

Why can't we simply agree to say that it was "within a short walk" and leave it at that?

We can be even more precise. "Within a short walk" is quite vague, it can be a 5 minutes walk.
The two spots are in fact a stone's throw away from each other.

Amitiés,
David

[claire]

Hi Claire,



You wouldn't be able to prove it, no, but you'd probably conceed that a reasonable case can be made, at the very least, for the blood having been Lisa's rather than confidently ruling out any possible connection between the two. When it comes to "Dave woz 'ere" though, my first consideration wouldn't be that Dave dunnit, but rather that someone was trying to frame Dave for the murder in a less-than-subtle fashion.

Best regards,
Ben

Hi Ben,

Really? Wow! I think that's really reaching. Your first thought would honestly be that they are related? (Actually, the walls round my neighbourhood here in the Gulf read, 'Talibaan.' Al Jazeera's studios are just down the road. There are lots of people in dish dashas wandering around. Should I be looking for Osama bL in my street?)

On a more serious, but related, note, I wonder how much graffiti and posters and what not were around on the walls. I remember a post to do with this not long ago, but I also know that many photos I've seen show some pretty 'busy' walls in that part of the East End. Of course, if this was an otherwise pristine area, I'd be more inclined to believe any links.

Hi DVV,

Hmm. Sam said it better than me. 'Jewish coincidences?' There are many, many more links to the gentile East End in the events of not only the night of the double event and, I daresay, a whole bunch of other, smaller, subgroups too (dockers, dossers, horses and hookers).

[Sam Flynn]

Ben,

Why can't we simply agree to say that it was "within a short walk" and leave it at that?

[Ben]

Hi all,

From my experience, It was approximately 25 yards and a 25 seconds walk away.

I'll leave it up to others to decide whether or not that qualifies as "close proximity".

Plus, remember, "red" doesn't mean "anti-semitic", only "premises with a low percentage of Jewish residents".

Oh indeed. I never said the killer was anti-semitic.

[Sam Flynn]

The Princess Alice does reside opposite the Victoria Home (now an ugly one-story building with a flower stall outside), but it's the red building to the East, not the grey building to the North.

I get confused when I'm on the ground in that area, Ben. Thanks for putting me straight.

However, red area as it may have been, there are a fair few dark blue areas around there, and un-surveyed regions of whatever hue. Unfortunately we can't determine, from the map as it stands, what the demographics would have been in that immediate area. Plus, remember, "red" doesn't mean "anti-semitic", only "premises with a low percentage of Jewish residents".