More Info on Thomas Allman

[Paddy]

Denis Birth

Name: Mother's Maiden Surname: BRYAN
BARNETT, DENIS
GRO Reference: 1849 S Quarter in NORTH AYLESFORD Volume 05 Page 418

Pat......

[Robert]

The trouble with the Shannon stepfather idea is that we still have Bryan. To acquire one stepfather might be considered normal. To acquire two looks like greed.

[MrBarnett]

Oh DEAR ! Nothing is ever simple with genealogy. Irish names are a nightmare, constant repetitions. I thought Bruce Paley had nailed this years age,Censuses and the fish porters licenses, except he could not get all the childrens births dated.And Chris Scott found the Allman Barnetto marriage
The Shannon name on the Allman/Barnetto cert certainly mixes things. Katherine Beer being a witness certainly means its Mum but there is evidence for Hayes. I looked for a Brien marriage to a Barnett and could not find one or Shannon.
We have a complete list of addresses for Joe now including Sally's finds.
Paley has Joe's birth cert in his book;
25th May 1858 Whitechapel ALDGATE Father John Barnett, Dock labourer, Mother Catherine Hayes. All the children apart from Denis were supposed to have been born in East End
Order of births, actually certificates needed, its still problematic. Paley was working before the internet
Denis born Chalk KENT 1849? [ east london in census records]
Daniel born Stepney 1852?
Catherine born either 1855, 1856 there are two for Shoreditch, one for East London/
Joseph 1858
John 1859 Whitechapel ?
John Barnett father died in 1864. There are two likely entries June Southwark Sep Whitechapel.
Denis in 1881 census 5 Goulston Buildings age 33 Fish porter born Bethnal Green wife Mary A Barnett 32
Children Denis age 9 John age 6 and their Aunt Mrs Hayes.
Short of getting the original certificates, we won't know. Perhaps Paley was wrong.

Miss Marple

"Paley was working before the internet" - and sometime after the pestilentient Blue Anchor Courts were demolished, I would imagine.


The above look to me like the records of someone who couldn't be arsed to research the case themself, but was happy to slap ignorant newcomers down.

[miss marple]

Mr Barnett.
You are unbelievably offensive. Several years age I spent ages trawling through census records looking for Joe's family marriage and birth records. And I found Allman and his marriages I thought Paley was wrong about some things but right about others.In my post I pointed out the discrepancies.I have not looked at Joe's family for a long time and perhaps with the various surnames of Catherine that have emerged its time to reassess evidence.I am always open to new evidence. If you leant to read properly, I said in my post that Paley needs to be looked at again. We need birth certs.
I research various aspects of Victorian low life and have written articles. You know nothing about me.

Miss Marple

[Robert]

There was a marriage Oct 9th 1814 at St Finbarr's (South), Cork City between William Shanahan and Mary Brien.

In 1815 at the same place there was a baptism for Cath Shanahan, 26th Aug, father William, mother's maiden name Brien or Breen.

[Paddy]

1861 Census

Could the Joanna Hays born 1811 in Ireland be related to Catherine in the 1861 census?

She was living in the same house at no 2 Cartwright Street, St Botolph Without, Aldgate. And listed next to John and Catherines rooms. Her step sons Florence and Timothy were fish porters....

Pat....

[Paddy]

1881

Ithink she may be the same Mrs Hayes (AUNT) born 1806 Ireland living with Denis and his family in Goulstons buildings Bermondsey in the 1881 census.
Which would make her Catherines sister....

Pat....

[Robert]

I wondered about Joanna, Pat, but 'Joanna' is different from 'Helena' (the godmother at Joe's baptism).

In the Irish records I found an Ellen Shanahan marrying a Matthew Hayes in 1861, but I had to discard it, since it seems unlikely that she would hop over here for Joe's baptism, hop back to Ireland to get married and then hop over here again in time for the 1881 census.

[Craig H]

Catherine Barnett

Hi all,

I'm re-reading my notes from searches I did a year ago on Catherine Barnett's family.

I have Joseph's wife's maiden name was Catherine Heas (baptised 27 May, 1821) in Castletowneroche, Ireland. Her parents were John Heas and Johanna (nee Daly).

This is probably the Johanna (surname spelt "Hayes") staying with Joseph's brother Dennis in the 1881 Census.

The first record I found of Joseph's parents in England was the 1851 Census where their surname was incorrectly spelt "Bernet". Parents John & Catherine were living at Tower Hamlet with first son Dennis (who later married Mary Ann Garrett in 1869, had 4 children and died in 1893) . Dennis (bn 1849) birthplace is stated Irelan, so they must have emigrated to England sometime 1849-early 1851.

Not sure if that helps?

Craig

[Robert]

Thanks very much for that, Craig. The Heas baptism is certainly intriguing. As far as I can see, that gives a marriage for Catherine's parents in 1816.

Dennis seems to be in the England birth registers, so I don't understand why the parents said Ireland.

The woman in the 1881 census was simply called Mrs Hayes. She was 75 years old. I suppose if she'd shaved a few years off her age she could have been Catherine's mother, but she was given as aunt in 1881, not grandmother.

The widow Joanna Hayes living in the same building as the Barnetts in 1861 had birth year c1811. Even if she was a few years older than that, there would still be the problem that she had two stepchildren of 25 and 16. They have a different surname from hers. So she must have married twice, or even three times. Or else after her second husband died, she reverted to her first husband's name for some reason.

[Craig H]

Hi Robert
Interesting to read your post.
I hadn't read all the other posts in this thread - will go and do that tonight.
For some reason, I was confident years ago of that lineage back to Heas / Hayes but maybe it's not right
All the best
Craig

[Robert]

No worries, Craig, any help appreciated.

Heas may be right. I haven't yet found a marriage for a Catherine Heas to a Barnett/Barnet/Barnay etc, either in Ireland or England, but there are one or two to a Brien. I am hoping to find a way of explaining the weird cocktail of Hayes/Shanahan/Brien that we're presented with, but I can't help feeling I'll be out of luck.

[miss marple]

Thomas Hayes was a witness to Denis's marriage to Mary Ann Garrett.Brother of Catherine?

Miss Marple

[Joolz]

The descendants of Catherine Barnett Beer

I have found a family tree that has Catherine Beer nee Barnett on it and there is a photograph of her . On the tree Catherine Beer [ nee Barnett ] has her mother listed as Hayes . I took a peak at the 1911 census and found the writing quite interesting of who filled in the form for the census . It seems that Joseph Benjamin Beer filled out the census form ; the writing slants to the left and has the writer ' invading ' the space of the next line , which just happens to be his wifes name AKA Catherine Beer [ nee Barnet ] ! There is a picture of Joseph Benjamin Beer , he resembles the recent photo fit of JTR - he even has a neck tie on ! Quite spooky . Is anyone on here able to check 1911 census and have a quick look at the graphology .
I gather that JTR would have known MJK due to facial mutilations and this guy was practically her brother in law ! He was a coal porter , any ideas about what times he may have worked ? Would he have had a legitimate reason to be on the streets during the times of the killings ? He must have been covered in black soot , could this have concealed blood ?

[MysterySinger]

Catherine Beer (Barnett) apparently.
1853-1911