Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

More Info on Thomas Allman

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • More Info on Thomas Allman

    I have just been digging around to find out a bit more about Thomas Allman born 1822 Cork in Ireland . He was the man that Catherine Barnett was residing with in 1871 . [ Catherine being Joseph Barnett's mother ] . Thomas Allman in 1851 was living at no 1 Hairbrain Court , with his wife Mary [ Nee Brian ] . The same year Catherine and husband John Barnett were living at 19 Crown Court with son Dennis Barnett aged 2.
    In 1858 Joseph Barnett is born at no 4 Hairbrain Court so there is a possibility that Catherine and Thomas Allman were neighbours . Catherine may have known Mary who was married to Thomas .

    In 1854 Thomas Allman is in the newspaper : Morning Post - Tuesday 02 May 1854 page 7 .

    THAMES . Dreadful Case of Wife Beating . Thomas Allman an Irishman surrendered on reconnaissances before Mr Ingham to answer a charge of violently assaulting and wounding his wife Mary , whose disfigured appearance , not withstanding her bad character , excited the greatest commiseration . Her mouth was frightfully cut and she with difficulty could articulate . Her face was much swollen and she had recently lost several teeth which had been knocked out by the violence of her brutal , but in many respects , unfortunate husband , who is known to have been a well conducted , industrious and sober and never had a charge against him until he married his present wife . The complainant was examined and was then in great pain . She said that her husband frequently beaten her in a most savage manner ; that he once broke five of her ribs by kicking and stamping on her , on another occasion he broke a pair of tongs over her body . and on Tuesday morning last , he came to her in bed , between twelve and ne o clock and with the end of the broken tongs , which had since been used as a poker he be - laboured her over the face and mouth , knocked out several teeth and she believed broke her jaw bone , her lips were also split up and she was reduced to a state of insensibility and lost a good deal of blood . In answer to a question by Mr Ingham , the witness said she was under the care of Dr Nash for some time when her ribs were broken . She could not tell how many times the prisoner struck her on Tuesday morning . The first blow made her senseless . The prisoner in defense said his wife was a very bad dissipated woman which was confirmed by the police in every particular . The case however was one of so serious a character that Mr Ingham required further evidence which was accordingly taken . Mr Ingham said in order that the prisoner might reflect upon what he had done and in the hope that he would not , under and circumstances , strike his wife again , he should adjudge him to be imprisoned for three calendar months and kept to hard labour . If the prisoner had not been , in other matters , a respectable , steady and hard working and if provocation had not been very great he should have committed him to six months.

    In 1864 Mary Allman dies and is buried 13 March 1864 address 18 Crown Court ! Also the same year Catherine's husband John Barnett died Oct 1864 leaving them both widows .

    I am sure I have read somewhere that Thomas Allman was ambidextrous and his father may have been a butcher however I can't seem to find the source .
    Last edited by Joolz; 02-04-2017, 10:27 AM.

  • #2
    That's very interesting, Joolz. Allman's defence that his wife was a very bad dissipated woman which was confirmed by the police in every particular seems pretty lame, but may not be entirely without foundation.

    In 1852, Mary had been convicted of cruety towards her 3 stepchildren. Then in 1854 she was convicted of the theft of various items from a Palmer's Folly prostitute named Sarah Malken. One of her stepchildren, Mary aged 12, who was working as a servant in the brothel, gave evidence against her saying that her stepmother had persuaded her to lend her the key to the house on two occasions when property had gone missing. When asked how she came to be working in the brothel Mary said she had left home because her stepmother beat her. So to escape from her abusive stepmother the child moved from Blue Anchor Yard to Bluegate Fields - talk about 'out of the frying pan...'

    At the 1854 trial Thomas Allman claimed that his daughter had run away from home while he was in prison.
    Last edited by MrBarnett; 02-04-2017, 02:29 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Mary Allman

      Have just been reading about her and found the following was one of many terrible reports on her. Its a wonder he didnt crack sooner...

      The Morning Post (London, England), Tuesday, January 06 1852

      Pat......
      Attached Files
      Last edited by Paddy; 02-04-2017, 07:10 PM. Reason: omission

      Comment


      • #4
        And I do hope this is not the oldest daughter Ann

        Daily News (London, England), Thursday, March 26, 1891

        Pat.....
        Attached Files

        Comment


        • #5
          Thomas Allman married Catherine Barnett in1885 the year she died. In the 1881 census Catherine is living with Allman, she is described as a sack maker and general servant and his daughter Mary 21. His first wife Mary died in 1864. The year Joe's dad died. Going to live with Allman was probably to to save her from penury and she left Denis the oldest son with the younger ones. The Allmans are living at Cohen's buildings Aldgate. Allman married again in 1891 Mary Leary. They are living at Cohen's buildings Royal Mint St in 1891 census with step children Daniel Leary 11 and Ellen 14.

          The horrible thing is the normalising of extreme violence against women, Allman is regarded as a respectable hard working man and because his wife is a drunk its ok to beat the **** out of her, and break her ribs.She probably drank because of him. I have researched horrendous accounts of 'Victorian Domestic Violence'


          Miss Marple
          Last edited by miss marple; 02-05-2017, 02:45 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            There was a culture of violence. Allman was part of this. Mary was part of this, if Ann beat her kids its hardly surprising, that was all she knew.

            Miss Marple

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by miss marple View Post
              There was a culture of violence. Allman was part of this. Mary was part of this, if Ann beat her kids its hardly surprising, that was all she knew.

              Miss Marple
              Now who's normalising physical abuse?

              Comment


              • #8
                I'm wondering how such a young girl ended up in Blugate Fields, then the most notorious red-light district in London. There was apparently an aunt named Margaret Roche (Roach?) who took the children under her wing.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Is it possible that Joseph Barnett lived with his mother and Thomas Allman ? Joseph could have witnessed this ' level ' of violence at a young age . It is probable that many women suffered at the hands of their partners and children at the hands of , probably both parents . This is the land of extremes ; extreme poverty , extreme violence and extreme behaviour . When you put too many mice together in one area what happens ? They start to attack one another . Thanks everyone for the snippets of newspaper articles . It has certainly opened my eyes . Funny how a name is just a name until you do a bit of fishing and suddenly the person become ' real ' . Maybe that is why all the children were living apart from their mother Catherine ? Who knows . Does anyone know what Catherine died of ? I think I found her death in 1881 .

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Is it possible that Joseph Barnett lived with his mother and Thomas Allman ? Joseph could have witnessed this ' level ' of violence at a young age . It is probable that many women suffered at the hands of their partners and children at the hands of , probably both parents . This is the land of extremes ; extreme poverty , extreme violence and extreme behaviour . When you put too many mice together in one area what happens ? They start to attack one another . Thanks everyone for the snippets of newspaper articles . It has certainly opened my eyes . Funny how a name is just a name until you do a bit of fishing and suddenly the person become ' real ' . Maybe that is why all the children were living apart from their mother Catherine ? Maybe she didnt abandon them perhaps they left . I guess we will never know . Does anyone know what Catherine died of ? I think I found her death in 1881 .

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Joolz You are wrong. Catherine Allman died in Whitechapel in 1885. age 58. She had married Allman the same year. There has been a lot of research on this. Did you not read my post?
                      Harry D What a stupid comment . I am not normalising violence against woman. It was normalised by the culture of the time and the legal system.

                      Miss Marple

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by miss marple View Post
                        Harry D What a stupid comment . I am not normalising violence against woman. It was normalised by the culture of the time and the legal system.
                        No, you were normalizing the violence she mete out against her children because she herself was a product of that era.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I was not normalising it. Unfortunately if brought up in a culture where violence is' normal 'patterns repeat themselves. Victims of violence and sexual abuse can repeat those patterns. Many killers were subjected to abuse as children. If Ann Allman was abused as a child. That would' normal' behaviour to her and unless shown another way would repeat those patterns.

                          'Honour' killing of young women is normalised in some cultures that does not mean its right. Normalisation can be very dangerous.

                          Miss Marple

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            A couple of points :

                            There was a Mary Allman dying Whitechapel Q1 1849. I strongly suspect that she was Thomas's first wife. He promptly marries Mary Brien/Brian in the following quarter. This may seem callous, but in certain circs men could be as desperate to marry as women were - Thomas was left with three children to look after, one only c2 years old.

                            Also, Mary (the second) seems to have had a stillbirth/infant death in the final quarter of 1851, a daughter by name of Grace. So she would not have been in her right mind at this time.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Robert View Post
                              A couple of points :

                              There was a Mary Allman dying Whitechapel Q1 1849. I strongly suspect that she was Thomas's first wife. He promptly marries Mary Brien/Brian in the following quarter. This may seem callous, but in certain circs men could be as desperate to marry as women were - Thomas was left with three children to look after, one only c2 years old.

                              Also, Mary (the second) seems to have had a stillbirth/infant death in the final quarter of 1851, a daughter by name of Grace. So she would not have been in her right mind at this time.
                              Hi Rob,

                              And did she have an excuse for robbing a brothel two years later? A brothel where her 12-year-old stepdaughter was in hiding in fear of her stepmother's violence.


                              Gary

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X