More Info on Thomas Allman

[Robert]

Hi Gary

I'm more concerned with the genealogy really. Obviously if an adult mistreats a child then they'll have to pay the price. But we don't know the circs, e.g. maybe there was a situation where children grieving over dead mother are presented with stepmother whom they resent and then half-sister Hannah on whom stepmother naturally dotes so half-sister is resented and that's reciprocated by stepmother and then dad steps in and you've got an Eastenders script.

[MrBarnett]

Hi Gary

I'm more concerned with the genealogy really. Obviously if an adult mistreats a child then they'll have to pay the price. But we don't know the circs, e.g. maybe there was a situation where children grieving over dead mother are presented with stepmother whom they resent and then half-sister Hannah on whom stepmother naturally dotes so half-sister is resented and that's reciprocated by stepmother and then dad steps in and you've got an Eastenders script.

That sounds plausible, but if someone breaks into a Bluegate Fields brothel on more than one occasion it sounds a bit more than just a case of stepparent/children angst.

And it wasn't the case that the attack on Mary was in some way brushed under the carpet by the court. It was taken very serioulsy, but Thomas's previous character (in contrast to his wife's it would seem) was taken into account when he was sentenced.

I'm wondering if anyone has a copy of the 'Barnetto' marriage cert. I'd be interested to see the addresses of the bride and groom.

[Paddy]

Have to just put in that Ann Allman does not appear to be the one that beat her children (thank god) . Apparently she married a Henry Edwards May 20th 1866 at St Pancras and they had quite a few kids. Henry was a Japanner and her father Thomas Allman was a forman at the London Docks...
Pat....

[Paddy]

Can someone give me some details of the Barnatto marriage and I will look?
Pat.........

[Robert]

Hi Pat


Marriages Jun 1885 (>99%)

Allman Thomas Holborn 1b 1012 Scan available - click to view
Barnetto Katharine Holborn 1b 1012 Scan available - click to view

[Paddy]

Hi Robert, Sorry none in marriages and Banns...

Pat.....

[Robert]

Ah well, Pat, Gary will have to order the cert.

[MrBarnett]

No, I couldn't find it on Ancestry either, which might have suggested it was an RC marriage, but Thomas was an avowed protestant and his earlier marriage to Mary (herself a catholic) had been C of E.

[MrBarnett]

Ah well, Pat, Gary will have to order the cert.

I can't remember the last time I ordered a Barnett cert. I might be able to sneak it past the auditor (Mrs B).

[Robert]

Tell her you're investigating the solitary candle in the villa of Allman.

[MrBarnett]

Tell her you're investigating the solitary candle in the villa of Allman.

Peachy!

[MrBarnett]

Joolz You are wrong. Catherine Allman died in Whitechapel in 1885. age 58. She had married Allman the same year. There has been a lot of research on this. Did you not read my post?
Harry D What a stupid comment . I am not normalising violence against woman. It was normalised by the culture of the time and the legal system.

Miss Marple

Would that be the post in which you state that Allman's daughter's name was Mary and Catherine was shown as a general servant in 1881 (both wrong)?

(Memo to self: never mount a high horse without making sure your girth is secure.)

[Harry D]

I was not normalising it. Unfortunately if brought up in a culture where violence is' normal 'patterns repeat themselves. Victims of violence and sexual abuse can repeat those patterns. Many killers were subjected to abuse as children. If Ann Allman was abused as a child. That would' normal' behaviour to her and unless shown another way would repeat those patterns.

'Honour' killing of young women is normalised in some cultures that does not mean its right. Normalisation can be very dangerous.

Miss Marple

And I'm sure there were dozens of women who grew up in that environment who never subjected their children to that kind of abuse.

[Paddy]

Found the Barnetto marriage in Holburn and found this death in same year in Whitechapel

Name Catherine Allman
Event Type Death
Registration Quarter Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration Year 1885
Registration District Whitechapel
County London
Event Place Whitechapel, London, England
Age (available after 1866) 58
Birth Year (Estimated) 1827
Volume 1C
Page 235
Line Number 42

(England and Wales Death Registration Index 1837-2007," database, FamilySearch)

Pat.....

[Paddy]

Barnetto marriage to a Thomas Allman

Name Katherine Barnetto
Event Type Marriage
Registration Quarter Apr-May-Jun
Registration Year 1885
Registration District Holborn
County London
Event Place Holborn, London, England
Volume 1B
Page 1042
Line Number 81

Pat.......