Connections or random?

[Batman]

Hello,

I have been reading some books recently released in the past few years and enjoying most of them and it's always good to see and read something new or a new take on things. Really some very talented people out there and on here.

One thing I was always sort of led to believe was that the Whitechapel doss-house situation was so fluid with people coming and going that anyone who spent any considerable time living this way would stay in a good many of them.

If this is so then wouldn't trying to connect people together with doss-house stays be sort of expected just due to random chance? That eventually with enough random cycling you would have a good portion of the victims connected to each other through these stays? Not even just victims but many of the characters in the historical record closely connected in a sort of seven degrees of separation way?

Another thing I was always sort of led to believe was that the area was so densely populated and fluid that it was like strangers everywhere. However that seems naive of me as strangers everywhere is my own perspective. Wouldn't Whitechapel behave just like a big town would, with people who would eventually get to remember faces? Seems strange that nobody ever pinned JtR down by sight alone.

[John G]

Hello,

I have been reading some books recently released in the past few years and enjoying most of them and it's always good to see and read something new or a new take on things. Really some very talented people out there and on here.

One thing I was always sort of led to believe was that the Whitechapel doss-house situation was so fluid with people coming and going that anyone who spent any considerable time living this way would stay in a good many of them.

If this is so then wouldn't trying to connect people together with doss-house stays be sort of expected just due to random chance? That eventually with enough random cycling you would have a good portion of the victims connected to each other through these stays? Not even just victims but many of the characters in the historical record closely connected in a sort of seven degrees of separation way?

Another thing I was always sort of led to believe was that the area was so densely populated and fluid that it was like strangers everywhere. However that seems naive of me as strangers everywhere is my own perspective. Wouldn't Whitechapel behave just like a big town would, with people who would eventually get to remember faces? Seems strange that nobody ever pinned JtR down by sight alone.

Wow, you've been away a while!

[Batman]

Wow, you've been away a while!

Yeah. I put aside a few hours a week the last time I was here for a few months just to go through the stuff I had been meaning to ask and discuss after having read a good few books over the years. I basically, concluded. Moved on. I know these mysteries can be a rabbit hole a bit so I kinda make a few rules up for myself. So since then I read more books and now want to discuss some more things. So a reason to be back for awhile. Same rules

[Pcdunn]

Hello, Batman, good to see you again!

I think you have an interesting point. People who live for a length of time in one building or neighborhood may get to recognize people by sight, I would say. But from what we can make out, people in the lowest socio-economic tiers changed lodgings frequently. If we don't know an average for number of times doss-houses were switched, can we calculate a number for your question?

[John Wheat]

Hi Batman

I agree largely with what you are saying. You're right that the victims are likely to have known each other because of the nature of how the poor lived at the time in London. However they may have all known Jack but trusted him. And Jack is likely to have appeared to have been some average Joe type rather than the overt lunatic criminal mastermind people at the time believed he was.

Cheers John

[Sam Flynn]

I think we need to take into account the sheer number of people, which was huge - there were in excess of 800 people crammed into Dorset Street alone, for example. Also, the personal histories of the victims suggests that only one or two (depending on how big your "canon" might be) had been resident in Spitalfields itself for any appreciable length of time.

These are just two of the factors that might give us pause when considering the connectedness of the victims and/or the recognisability of the killer. There may be others.

[GUT]

I expect some may have known each other by sight.

[Sam Flynn]

I expect some may have known each other by sight.

Quite possibly, but maybe not in the case of Polly Nichols, had only been resident in Whitechapel (never mind Spitalfields) for a very short time before she was killed. Possibly not Mary Kelly, either, who - on her account, admittedly - seems only to have been in London for a handful of years, with most of those spent "out West" or down Ratcliffe way. Liz Stride had been around the area somewhat longer, but even she had spent a large chunk of her London life in Poplar and the "Tiger Bay" area/St George in the East. Indeed, this might go some way to explaining why there were occasional delays and/or confusion in identifying some of the victims. Perhaps they simply weren't well-enough known by their neighbours.

Reminds me of when I lived in South London and found a wallet on the pavement outside my digs. I showed a photograph in the wallet to my landlady, who responded "Well, the face sort-of rings a bell, but I don't know him". Turned out it was her neighbour from only three or four doors away. London has long had a reputation for anonymity, at least for some of its residents.

[Paddy]

Tiger Bay area

Sam,
Did the Tiger Bay Area of St George in the East include Breezers Hill or Pennington Street?
Pat......

[Sam Flynn]

Sam,
Did the Tiger Bay Area of St George in the East include Breezers Hill or Pennington Street?

It included both, I believe, Pat. Strictly speaking, I may have been incorrect to locate Stride's former stomping-ground in Tiger Bay proper; she (and Michael Kidney) used to live a little further north, albeit still in the St George area, only a short distance from where she was eventually killed, in fact.

[Tom_Wescott]

Quite possibly, but maybe not in the case of Polly Nichols, had only been resident in Whitechapel (never mind Spitalfields) for a very short time before she was killed. Possibly not Mary Kelly, either, who - on her account, admittedly - seems only to have been in London for a handful of years, with most of those spent "out West" or down Ratcliffe way. Liz Stride had been around the area somewhat longer, but even she had spent a large chunk of her London life in Poplar and the "Tiger Bay" area/St George in the East. Indeed, this might go some way to explaining why there were occasional delays and/or confusion in identifying some of the victims. Perhaps they simply weren't well-enough known by their neighbours.

Hi Sam. You don't think Polly Nichols knew Frances Coles? They lived in the same house together. And Polly lived in the same house as Annie Chapman prior to her death. It was Polly's friends and housemates who first gave rise to 'Leather Apron', so whoever that poor schmuck really was, Polly would have known him by sight. As for Stride, she'd lived for years on the same street as Catherine Eddowes, which doesn't make them friends, but means they must have passed each other on the streets, working the streets, shopping, drinking in pubs, going to the showers, etc. And they both may have earned money cleaning in the Rothschild buildings.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

It included both, I believe, Pat. Strictly speaking, I may have been incorrect to locate Stride's former stomping-ground in Tiger Bay proper; she (and Michael Kidney) used to live a little further north, albeit still in the St George area, only a short distance from where she was eventually killed, in fact.

You weren't too far off, though. Stride was in Tiger Bay in the days before her death. Also in Hanbury Street.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Batman]

Hi Sam. You don't think Polly Nichols knew Frances Coles? They lived in the same house together. And Polly lived in the same house as Annie Chapman prior to her death. It was Polly's friends and housemates who first gave rise to 'Leather Apron', so whoever that poor schmuck really was, Polly would have known him by sight. As for Stride, she'd lived for years on the same street as Catherine Eddowes, which doesn't make them friends, but means they must have passed each other on the streets, working the streets, shopping, drinking in pubs, going to the showers, etc. And they both may have earned money cleaning in the Rothschild buildings.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

This is along the lines of what I am talking about What are chances of these people being connected up by sheer random chance alone of just staying in similar places over time? I think its quite high. That to draw a social connection would require more, like showing acquaintances somehow other than staying in the same doss-house. Which as per your book you have done some of.

By the way, what is the chance that JtR was a PC who was given plain clothes duty and used that as cover to commit the rest of the crimes?

[Abby Normal]

This is along the lines of what I am talking about What are chances of these people being connected up by sheer random chance alone of just staying in similar places over time? I think its quite high. That to draw a social connection would require more, like showing acquaintances somehow other than staying in the same doss-house. Which as per your book you have done some of.

By the way, what is the chance that JtR was a PC who was given plain clothes duty and used that as cover to commit the rest of the crimes?

I don't think any active serial killer in history was an active cop at the same time, so doubt it.

[Batman]

I don't think any active serial killer in history was an active cop at the same time, so doubt it.

What about this. http://listverse.com/2016/01/02/10-serial-killer-cops/