Connections or random?

[Phil Carter]

Hi Sam. You don't think Polly Nichols knew Frances Coles? They lived in the same house together. And Polly lived in the same house as Annie Chapman prior to her death. It was Polly's friends and housemates who first gave rise to 'Leather Apron', so whoever that poor schmuck really was, Polly would have known him by sight. As for Stride, she'd lived for years on the same street as Catherine Eddowes, which doesn't make them friends, but means they must have passed each other on the streets, working the streets, shopping, drinking in pubs, going to the showers, etc. And they both may have earned money cleaning in the Rothschild buildings.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom,

Sorry. .but you have me stumped here.
What evidence have you that Stride "must" or Eddowes for that matter..either went to the same "showers" (I think you meant baths), "passed each other (whilst) working the streets"????, "shopping", "going to the pubs". ....?

Im sorry Tom..but your imagination is running riot here to fit whatever your intention is.

"Shopping"...wasn't anything like today. It cannot even be compared. .ESPECIALLY as these women were poorer than church mice.
"Bathing"??? Are you really serious? That cost money they needed for food and booze. They washed themselves with cold water from a tap somewhere.
As far as drinking in pubs is concerned.there was a veritable plethora of pubs..in all areas.
But the worst comment was that they MUST have passed each other "working the streets". This isnt 1988...they didnt "work the streets" at all. They hung around pubs..Hung around the dock aareas.That is IF...IF they were REGULAR prostitutes..of which there is no evidence of at all in the case of Eddowes and Stride.
Im sorry Tom. This time you have seriously got it wrong. I recommend a good re think.


Phil

[MrBarnett]

Stride visited a friend in Tiger Bay not long before her murder. Tiger Bay wasn't too far distant from Berner Street.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

I've found references to Berner Street being in a district 'formerly known as' Tiger Bay, to an associate of Stride's bring tracked down to a neighbourhood that was 'formerly known as' Tiger Bay and to a Mr Harris leaving his house in Tiger Bay (Brunswick Street) to see what was going on in Berner Street, but nothing to locate Liz herself there (other than on the night of her murder, if you count Berner Street as being in Tiger Bay).

There had been at least three Tiger Bays in London, though by 1888 they would seem to have lost their claws.

Brunswick Street, Everard Street, Henry Street and Frederick Street appear to have been the worst streets in the Tiger Bay which sat in the NW corner of STGITE, where it met Whitechapel. The heyday of its notoriety was the 1850s/60s. By 1891, Brunswick Street, which had been possibly the most Tigrish of all, was occupied almost exclusively by seemingly respectable East European Jews.

The most recent claimant to the title was Betts Street, where the Ratcliffe Highway Mission For Fallen Women had opened in February, 1888. That backed on to Princes Street, the location of Liz's Swedish Church. The last of the 35 'bad houses' in Betts Street were demolished ca 1887 to make way for the mission.

Then, of course, there was Bluegate Fields, straddling the STGITE and Shadwell border. That was also 'formerly known as' Tiger Bay, but had been tamed considerably by 1888.

So far I haven't been able to discover a functioning Tiger Bay in London in 1888. If anyone has any thoughts, I'd love to hear them.

(Apologies if this is somewhat off-topic.)

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=26953&highlight=tiger

Gary

[Phil Carter]

Hello Gary

I found this..From 1865

http://www.victorianlondon.org/publications3/pauper-7.htm

Phil

[MrBarnett]

Hello Gary

I found this..From 1865

http://www.victorianlondon.org/publications3/pauper-7.htm

Phil

Thanks, Phil. I had seen that. It's the Bluegate Fields Tiger Bay, I believe.

[Phil Carter]

Hi Gary,

Yes..That is what I thought too.
Thanks.😊

Phil

[Joshua Rogan]

I think this (abridged) conversation from an article about a visit to "Tiger Bay" is quite informative;

"There ain't no place of that name hereabout," said he, "you must ha' been misdirected."

"But can you direct me to the neighbourhood the newspapers have spoken of as Tiger Bay?"

"Oh if she-tigers make Tiger Bays, you haven't got far to travel," replied Mr Policeman, yielding slightly ; "that's one" (pointing to a black and narrow avenue on the opposite side of the way), "and two turnins higher up there's another. Brunswick Street is another. Brunswick Gardens is a goodish bit further up - little prayer-meeting place at the corner of it. P'raps that's the Tiger Bay you want. I'd rather you want it than me. They'd have the hair off a man's head if they could get a penny a pound for it. About one in the morning or a little after is the time for a fellow to take a walk through Brunswick Street."

http://www.mernick.org.uk/thhol/tigerbay.html

[MrBarnett]

I think this (abridged) conversation from an article about a visit to "Tiger Bay" is quite informative;

"There ain't no place of that name hereabout," said he, "you must ha' been misdirected."

"But can you direct me to the neighbourhood the newspapers have spoken of as Tiger Bay?"

"Oh if she-tigers make Tiger Bays, you haven't got far to travel," replied Mr Policeman, yielding slightly ; "that's one" (pointing to a black and narrow avenue on the opposite side of the way), "and two turnins higher up there's another. Brunswick Street is another. Brunswick Gardens is a goodish bit further up - little prayer-meeting place at the corner of it. P'raps that's the Tiger Bay you want. I'd rather you want it than me. They'd have the hair off a man's head if they could get a penny a pound for it. About one in the morning or a little after is the time for a fellow to take a walk through Brunswick Street."

http://www.mernick.org.uk/thhol/tigerbay.html

Hi Joshua,

Yes, that was the Greenwood piece that I started the JTRForums thread with. It confused me because it stated that Brunswick Street had been demolished to make way for railway improvements (it hadn't).

Gary

[Joshua Rogan]

Are you sure Greenwood wasn't referring to Brunswick Gardens being destroyed (I'm unable to locate it) rather than Brunswick Street? He mentions them both in the article I posted, but in a later one he refers to the railway being responsible for Tiger Bay's demise;

http://www.victorianlondon.org/publications7/odd-12.htm

"At the time mentioned, the stronghold of the scaly monster was the snug creeks and inlets of a locality known as Tiger Bay, but the real name of which was Brunswick Gardens, and mainly consisted of a long and sinuous thoroughfare, extending from the "Highway" to Cable Street.....

....But Tiger Bay has ceased to be. It held its ground with tenacity, and in spite of the repeated protests of the more respectable inhabitants, and the frequent denunciations of the magistrates of the Thames Police Court, who were in great part provided with employment by the unwearying energy of the tigers and tigresses. At last came the East London Railway, and made such a clean sweep of the "Bay," and of the slums immediately adjacent, that a marauder of the period, returned from fourteen years' penal servitude, would be sorely perplexed to discover even the site of his old familiar haunt."

[MrBarnett]

Are you sure Greenwood wasn't referring to Brunswick Gardens being destroyed (I'm unable to locate it) rather than Brunswick Street? He mentions them both in the article I posted, but in a later one he refers to the railway being responsible for Tiger Bay's demise;

http://www.victorianlondon.org/publications7/odd-12.htm

"At the time mentioned, the stronghold of the scaly monster was the snug creeks and inlets of a locality known as Tiger Bay, but the real name of which was Brunswick Gardens, and mainly consisted of a long and sinuous thoroughfare, extending from the "Highway" to Cable Street.....

....But Tiger Bay has ceased to be. It held its ground with tenacity, and in spite of the repeated protests of the more respectable inhabitants, and the frequent denunciations of the magistrates of the Thames Police Court, who were in great part provided with employment by the unwearying energy of the tigers and tigresses. At last came the East London Railway, and made such a clean sweep of the "Bay," and of the slums immediately adjacent, that a marauder of the period, returned from fourteen years' penal servitude, would be sorely perplexed to discover even the site of his old familiar haunt."

That's clearly Bluegate Fields he's describing. I think he may have got a bit muddled. No railway went through Bluegate Fields. It's worst courts and alleys, such as Palmer's Folly, were demolished and replace by schools.

There was a Brunswick Place at the northern end of Backchurch Lane, Brunswick Gardens is a bit of a mystery.

[Joshua Rogan]

I have a period map that shows the East London Railway running north/south from Whitechapel Station through Shadwell to Wapping and beyond. It seems this was part of the underground system, but was actually built as a cutting (which was then covered over and subsequently built on) so would have necessitated a fair bit of demolition. I think it runs along the line of today's Dellow Street. It fits the timeline between the two articles (1874 and 1883) when the mysterious Brunswick Gardens disappeared.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_London_Line

"10 April 1876: Wapping to Shoreditch, through a cut-and-cover tunnel constructed in part along the bottom of an infilled dock. At Shoreditch a connection was made with the Great Eastern Railway to Liverpool Street. Intermediate stations were at Shadwell and Whitechapel."

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Tom,

Sorry. .but you have me stumped here.
What evidence have you that Stride "must" or Eddowes for that matter..either went to the same "showers" (I think you meant baths), "passed each other (whilst) working the streets"????, "shopping", "going to the pubs". ....?

Im sorry Tom..but your imagination is running riot here to fit whatever your intention is.

"Shopping"...wasn't anything like today. It cannot even be compared. .ESPECIALLY as these women were poorer than church mice.
"Bathing"??? Are you really serious? That cost money they needed for food and booze. They washed themselves with cold water from a tap somewhere.
As far as drinking in pubs is concerned.there was a veritable plethora of pubs..in all areas.
But the worst comment was that they MUST have passed each other "working the streets". This isnt 1988...they didnt "work the streets" at all. They hung around pubs..Hung around the dock aareas.That is IF...IF they were REGULAR prostitutes..of which there is no evidence of at all in the case of Eddowes and Stride.
Im sorry Tom. This time you have seriously got it wrong. I recommend a good re think.


Phil

Thanks for the advice, Phil.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[MrBarnett]

I have a period map that shows the East London Railway running north/south from Whitechapel Station through Shadwell to Wapping and beyond. It seems this was part of the underground system, but was actually built as a cutting (which was then covered over and subsequently built on) so would have necessitated a fair bit of demolition. I think it runs along the line of today's Dellow Street. It fits the timeline between the two articles (1874 and 1883) when the mysterious Brunswick Gardens disappeared.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_London_Line

"10 April 1876: Wapping to Shoreditch, through a cut-and-cover tunnel constructed in part along the bottom of an infilled dock. At Shoreditch a connection was made with the Great Eastern Railway to Liverpool Street. Intermediate stations were at Shadwell and Whitechapel."

There was a case in 1874 brought by a man who owned houses in New Court (where the opium dens were in Bluegate Fields) against the East London Railway Company for damage caused to his properties as a result of tunnelling beneath them. But New Court and Palmers Folly were still there in 1881, so it doesn't seem the tunnelling caused wholesale destruction.

And the courts on the eastern side of Dellow Street were still largely intact at the beginning of 1889. Brunswick Gardens is a bit of a mystery.

[Michael W Richards]

I believe that proximity is a reasonable measure of whether it is likely that any of these victims knew each other. Dorset Street, to me, seems to be a connective link based on that belief.

I also believe that Kates choice of alias usage in her last 24 hours, combined with what we know is at least a partially fabricated story by John Kelly of his and Kates last 24 hours, might suggest prior knowledge of Mary Kelly as well.

[Sam Flynn]

I believe that proximity is a reasonable measure of whether it is likely that any of these victims knew each other. Dorset Street, to me, seems to be a connective link based on that belief.

As I've pointed out, there were approx 800 people lodging in Dorset Street, so that has to be fed into the equation somehow. Added to that, we have to consider the extent to which the victims' tenure overlapped, for example. There's also the question of how the victims' ages might have influenced their peer groups, specifically with regard to those with whom they likely associated; after all, Kelly was in her mid-twenties, whilst many of the other victims were fully two decades older.

It's a complex, multi-faceted problem, for sure.

[Phil Carter]

Thanks for the advice, Phil.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

Either you are doing your usual thing..playing little fun games.. or you are hopelessly unaware of how daft your comments look.

Your new book had better not have any of those ideas in them. It would not bode well.


Phil