The Double Event

[Jon Guy]

There were 2 club members who stated that they were alerted to a body in the passageway before 12:45am Jon, as well as Spooners estimated time. That's 3 witnesses who corroborate each other, apparently without any prior discussions with the club steward.

Where else in the Stride case do you find 3 corroborating accounts? Louis has only his word, Schwartz has only his word, and for me, its highly probable that neither are unbiased witnesses.

With the greatest of respect, Mike, I feel like I`m going down the rabbit hole here, so before the White Knight starts talking backwards I`ll leave you with Diemshitz`s inquest testimony, make of it what you will:

I left home about half-past eleven in the morning, and returned exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I noticed the time at the baker's shop at the corner of Berner-street.

Daily Tel Oct 2nd 1888

[Michael W Richards]

Are you seriously basing your timings on Spooner and Koz`s statements to the press, Mike ?

more simply put....Do I think its possible that Stride was killed 15-20 minutes before 1am? Yeah, I do.

[Michael W Richards]

Are you seriously basing your timings on Spooner and Koz`s statements to the press, Mike ?

There were 2 club members who stated that they were alerted to a body in the passageway before 12:45am Jon, as well as Spooners estimated time. That's 3 witnesses who corroborate each other, apparently without any prior discussions with the club steward.

Where else in the Stride case do you find 3 corroborating accounts? Louis has only his word, Schwartz has only his word, and for me, its highly probable that neither are unbiased witnesses.

[Jon Guy]

The quote from Kozebrodksi was a Daily News quote, and the interview took place about an hour after the body was discovered. Its very relevant, considering Issac's relationship with Louis and the large time discrepancy.
Spooners account also places him in the passageway before 12:45. Consider again the pronouncement that her cut may have occurred as early as 12:46ish....using your time allowance for these cases, might it have been earlier...say 12:40? We have a trustworthy witness that says the streets were virtually empty between 12:30 and 12:50 aside from a young couple canoodling. We have an unknown witness make a claim about that time period later that same day. Its not used in any form at the Inquest. We have only the word of Louis Diemshitz, one of the men most responsible for the goings on at the club, addressing his discovery time, and we have 3 witnesses, 1 of which is unaffiliated with the club, claim they heard about this incident well before 1am.

Are you seriously basing your timings on Spooner and Koz`s statements to the press, Mike ?

[Michael W Richards]

I haven`t had any problems reconciling the Berner Street witness timings, Michael.
It`s a matter of what sources are considered.
Unless we have a source for a timepiece we shouldn't presume there was one. But, what was the source for the Isaac statement ? I`m guessing it was a newspaper report, which would be cancelled out by other witness statements with stronger foundations.

The quote from Kozebrodksi was a Daily News quote, and the interview took place about an hour after the body was discovered. Its very relevant, considering Issac's relationship with Louis and the large time discrepancy. Spooners account also places him in the passageway before 12:45. Consider again the pronouncement that her cut may have occurred as early as 12:46ish....using your time allowance for these cases, might it have been earlier...say 12:40? We have a trustworthy witness that says the streets were virtually empty between 12:30 and 12:50 aside from a young couple canoodling. We have an unknown witness make a claim about that time period later that same day. Its not used in any form at the Inquest. We have only the word of Louis Diemshitz, one of the men most responsible for the goings on at the club, addressing his discovery time, and we have 3 witnesses, 1 of which is unaffiliated with the club, claim they heard about this incident well before 1am.

[Jon Guy]

Assuming everyone was off by a few minutes doesn't answer the myriad of problems reconciling one account with another Jon. .

I haven`t had any problems reconciling the Berner Street witness timings, Michael.
It`s a matter of what sources are considered.

And I mentioned Isaac....he was one of 2 members that were in the club when they heard about the body. One would presume a timepiece was available to them. Issac said he returned at 12:30 and about 10 minutes later he was called to the passage.

Unless we have a source for a timepiece we shouldn't presume there was one.
But, what was the source for the Isaac statement ? I`m guessing it was a newspaper report, which would be cancelled out by other witness statements with stronger foundations.

[Batman]

When considering the possibility that Liz Stride was not a Ripper victim, a large part of the argument is the two murders happening within a short time frame in such close proximity.

It is very important to note that if you walk from the scene of Stride's murder at a normal pace, at the time she was murdered, towards Mitre Square direction, that you will meet Eddowes coming out of the drunk tank and on her way towards you, well within your window of vision.

So it isn't just a short time frame, it's a Goldilocks zone if you calculate both these trajectories (directions because they obviously change course but its still calculated the same way, distance, speed and time).

[Michael W Richards]

So, if PC Smith was a few minutes out with his reckoning. so could Schwartz.
But obviously, to study the witnesses timings we first need to know who was using what to tell the time.
There was a clock at the bakers at the top of Berner Street and Dr Blackwell had a watch.

Assuming everyone was off by a few minutes doesn't answer the myriad of problems reconciling one account with another Jon. And I mentioned Isaac....he was one of 2 members that were in the club when they heard about the body. One would presume a timepiece was available to them. Issac said he returned at 12:30 and about 10 minutes later he was called to the passage.

[Jon Guy]

PC Smith estimated that he arrived back on Berner Street at 1:00am. On that basis he suggested that he saw Stride and the suspect between 12:30-12:35, i.e. because his beat took him 25-30 minutes to complete.

However, he couldn't possibly have arrived back on Berner Street at 1:00am, because Louis D didn't discover the body until after that time and PC Lamb and another officer were already in attendance, having been alerted by the club members (in fact, PC Lamb estimated that Dr Blackwell arrived about 10-12 minutes after himself, indicating that he arrived at about 1:05, although I would have thought it was later than this because before his arrival Louis has to discover the body-around 1:02-alert club members, who then exit the club and examine the body, then they have to go in search of an officer and, having found PC Lamb, he has to make his way to the club.)

PC Smith then informs us that, "I saw that the woman was dead, and I went to the police station for an ambulance, leaving the other constables in charge of the body. Dr Blackwell's assistant arrived just as I was going away."

Now, we know that Edward Johnson arrived 3 to 4 minutes before Dr Blackwell, so about 1:12 to 1:13, indicating that PC Smith had arrived shortly beforehand, say, 1:10. This would mean that the timing of the Stride sighting would be between 12:40 and 12:45 and not 12:30-13:35.

So, if PC Smith was a few minutes out with his reckoning. so could Schwartz.
But obviously, to study the witnesses timings we first need to know who was using what to tell the time.
There was a clock at the bakers at the top of Berner Street and Dr Blackwell had a watch.

[Michael W Richards]

PC Smith estimated that he arrived back on Berner Street at 1:00am. On that basis he suggested that he saw Stride and the suspect between 12:30-12:35, i.e. because his beat took him 25-30 minutes to complete.

However, he couldn't possibly have arrived back on Berner Street at 1:00am, because Louis D didn't discover the body until after that time and PC Lamb and another officer were already in attendance, having been alerted by the club members (in fact, PC Lamb estimated that Dr Blackwell arrived about 10-12 minutes after himself, indicating that he arrived at about 1:05, although I would have thought it was later than this because before his arrival Louis has to discover the body-around 1:02-alert club members, who then exit the club and examine the body, then they have to go in search of an officer and, having found PC Lamb, he has to make his way to the club.)

PC Smith then informs us that, "I saw that the woman was dead, and I went to the police station for an ambulance, leaving the other constables in charge of the body. Dr Blackwell's assistant arrived just as I was going away."

Now, we know that Edward Johnson arrived 3 to 4 minutes before Dr Blackwell, so about 1:12 to 1:13, indicating that PC Smith had arrived shortly beforehand, say, 1:10. This would mean that the timing of the Stride sighting would be between 12:40 and 12:45 and not 12:30-13:35.

There are witnesses, including Issac Kozebrodski, who claim to have been alerted about a body in the passage around 12:40-12:45. Issac also claimed he was sent out alone to look for help shortly thereafter..by Louis.

I suppose its all in whom you rest your hopes on.

And your final statement seems to contradict Israel Schwartz....not that I'm opposed to that, there are many questionable elements to that story.

[John G]

What evidence ?

PC Smith estimated that he arrived back on Berner Street at 1:00am. On that basis he suggested that he saw Stride and the suspect between 12:30-12:35, i.e. because his beat took him 25-30 minutes to complete.

However, he couldn't possibly have arrived back on Berner Street at 1:00am, because Louis D didn't discover the body until after that time and PC Lamb and another officer were already in attendance, having been alerted by the club members (in fact, PC Lamb estimated that Dr Blackwell arrived about 10-12 minutes after himself, indicating that he arrived at about 1:05, although I would have thought it was later than this because before his arrival Louis has to discover the body-around 1:02-alert club members, who then exit the club and examine the body, then they have to go in search of an officer and, having found PC Lamb, he has to make his way to the club.)

PC Smith then informs us that, "I saw that the woman was dead, and I went to the police station for an ambulance, leaving the other constables in charge of the body. Dr Blackwell's assistant arrived just as I was going away."

Now, we know that Edward Johnson arrived 3 to 4 minutes before Dr Blackwell, so about 1:12 to 1:13, indicating that PC Smith had arrived shortly beforehand, say, 1:10. This would mean that the timing of the Stride sighting would be between 12:40 and 12:45 and not 12:30-13:35.

[Jon Guy]

Except perhaps for PC Smith, because I believe the evidence shows he was about 10 minutes out with his estimated timings, i.e. I think it likely he saw Stride with a suspect at 12:40-12:45, not 12:30-12:35.

What evidence ?

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

Do you think the higher echelons of the police were more likely to be a group of wishful-thinkers- who were probably becoming more and more desperate for a breakthrough, as evidence by the faith placed in Lawende who, on the face of things, was a most uninspiring witness-than the local men on the ground, as exemplified by the boys at Leman Street?

Hi John.

I guess it can't be denied that there are always some officials, not directly involved in the day-to-day investigations, who are wishful-thinkers. I just wouldn't put Swanson in that group.
We do have police opinion on Lawende which provides a different picture of their expectations than the modern theorist has adopted.

I don't buy into the belief that Lawende saw Eddowes, whereas many use this witness as a foundation for their theories. The police were not as certain either.

With respect to Schwartz, we can't forget that it is the Coroner who decides on witness reliability not the police officials. It might be difficult for us today to believe that the police and the Coroner could have differing opinions, but it must have been the case on occasion.
We have mulled over this conundrum for years with no real consensus to explain why Schwartz did not appear, and why the opinion of the Leman Police seems to differ to that of Swanson.

That said, we do not know what the origin was for the published opinion from Leman St., was it a constable who was not fully informed?
Or, conversely, was Swanson's opinion written before the investigation of Schwartz was complete.

Swanson's report is dated Oct. 19th, but so is all the paperwork, which may only mean this was the date of completion/submission. The file included reports on Nichols & Chapman too, so it is unlikely he wrote all the reports on the same day.

[John G]

Fair enough, but why do you think Swanson did believe Schwartz?

And, who do you think would have been tasked with investigating Schwartz's story, the police at Leman St. Stn. or the Detectives at Scotland Yard?

Hi Jon,

Do you think the higher echelons of the police were more likely to be a group of wishful-thinkers- who were probably becoming more and more desperate for a breakthrough, as evidence by the faith placed in Lawende who, on the face of things, was a most uninspiring witness-than the local men on the ground, as exemplified by the boys at Leman Street?

[Harry D]

Fair enough, but why do you think Swanson did believe Schwartz?

And, who do you think would have been tasked with investigating Schwartz's story, the police at Leman St. Stn. or the Detectives at Scotland Yard?

Probably because they had precious few leads to go on?

Either way, Schwartz appeared to lose credence.

Well there are assaults and then there are assaults. As I stated earlier, Schwartz simply could have witnessed a simple street hassle. So I see no reason to limit ourselves to saying that he either witnessed Stride with her killer or that he was lying. Even Swanson allowed for the possibility that what Schwartz saw was unrelated to her death.

Not impossible but extremely unlikely.

Hello Harry,

What reason do you think Schwartz had for lying?

Schwartz was put up by the IWEC as damage control. After the fiasco with Leather Apron, and the general hostility towards the Jews and their 'activities', the last thing a Jewish socialists club wanted was a Ripper victim on their doorstep. They had to deflect suspicion away from themselves. Enter Schwartz with his antisemitic thug accosting Stride in the street.