The Double Event

[Phil Carter]

The fact that he didn't come forward until Tuesday of that week....a la Hutchinson....isn't in and of itself suspicious, but when you consider that at 12:55-56...which is the time Fanny saw him, you have to put into consideration that Liz could very well have been inside the passage either being cut or bleeding out. Which suggests that the killer was still on the premises at that time. Fanny would have seen him exit via the gates if he left before 12:55 and after 12:50.

So...does this guy cut and go inside the club, or cut and linger in the passageway or yard? Remember, they searched inside the club too.

Hello Michael,

Hope you are well 😊

The thought occurs to me..if this man "cuts and goes inside the club"... exactly where does that put the idea of a late night "double event " ?.. as the police would have searched the club and talked to all those inside.
Now that takes time...no?



Phil

[Michael W Richards]

The fact that he didn't come forward until Tuesday of that week....a la Hutchinson....isn't in and of itself suspicious, but when you consider that at 12:55-56...which is the time Fanny saw him, you have to put into consideration that Liz could very well have been inside the passage either being cut or bleeding out. Which suggests that the killer was still on the premises at that time. Fanny would have seen him exit via the gates if he left before 12:55 and after 12:50.

So...does this guy cut and go inside the club, or cut and linger in the passageway or yard? Remember, they searched inside the club too.

[Joshua Rogan]

Mmm, an unidentified man spotted at the scene of a murder injecting himself into the case by going to the police to "clear himself".... classic serial killer behaviour!

On a serious note.....any reason to think Leon was a bit dodgy, MS, or just a feeling?

[Abby Normal]

I'm not sure Leon Goldstein was whiter than white but, there again, no ripper either.

you never know-he was carrying a shiny black bag! ; )

[MysterySinger]

I'm not sure Leon Goldstein was whiter than white but, there again, no ripper either.

[Joshua Rogan]

reading into the fifth edition, there were two women, neighbours even, at their door. The contradiction, for me, comes when i try to read fanny mortimer and the woman who heard the constable AS the same woman.

I think the woman this refers to was chatting with neighbours when she was interviewed, not (necessarily) at the time of the murder.

[Robert St Devil]

the woman who hears the constable and fanny mortimer appear as different women in this edition of the evening news because the journalist separates their encounters within the same article. the artisan,s wife, im guessing here, appeared in an earlier edition of that day,s evening news, and i can,t tell if she is either of the afore mentioned women.

reading into the fifth edition, there were two women, neighbours even, at their door. The contradiction, for me, comes when i try to read fanny mortimer and the woman who heard the constable AS the same woman.

[Joshua Rogan]

So... we have the potential for 3 possible neighbours, standing outside their doorstep about the same hour, each going in at different intervals, each commenting how "unusual, quiet" was Berner street, none mentioning seeing the other woman (or women) for that matter. hmm...

Hi Robert,
If they are all different women then their stories don't seem to contradict each other. The only contradiction was probably introduced by the journalist - number 36 wasn't 4 doors from the scene, but it was 2 doors from the club and 3 doors from the gateway. Coincidence or magic? Then again, perhaps Fanny and her neighbours were all hanging out together on one doorstep.
But my money's on them all being local prostitutes who murdered Liz for encroaching on their patch.

[Robert St Devil]

hello joshua rogan, the forum

i read the 3 reports that you cited [on casebook] - same newspaper [en], same day [oct1], different editions. i could come away with 3 women (possibly!). There are:

1. the woman from "3 doors down" (no, i wont sing you one of their songs!)
2. the woman from 2 doors down
3. the woman from 4 doors down

1. The report only says that the journalist found her there, not whether she lived there. She was the ,,artisan,s wife,, and i can,t determine whether she is fanny or not, not enough evidence. Only that she was found talking with a couple of neighbors, made me wonder WHO those neighbors might be. She doesn,t say how long she was at the door, but she apparently was there an adequate moment to assess the ongoings of berner street.

2. This woman heard the tramp of the constable, and claims to be at her door from around 12:46 to 12:56am.

3. The 3rd woman is Fanny Mortimer, claiming to have stood at her doorstep nearly the whole time from 12:30 to 1:00am.

So... we have the potential for 3 possible neighbours, standing outside their doorstep about the same hour, each going in at different intervals, each commenting how "unusual, quiet" was Berner street, none mentioning seeing the other woman (or women) for that matter. hmm...

[Joshua Rogan]

Cheers for those Jon. Fanny's sighting did get a lot of press, so I was beginning to wonder if Leon's coming forward got any coverage at all. If the Lloyds mention is the only one, it's no wonder that black bag stuck in the public consciousness.

[Wickerman]

Here is one of the reports that Lloyds is making reference to:

(Mrs Mortimer)
"I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock on Sunday morning, and did not notice anything unusual. As the body when found was quite warm, the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe anyone enter the gates. It was just after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from Commercial-road. He looked up at the club and went round the corner by the board school."
Pall Mall Gazette, 1 Oct. 1888.

As Mortimer mentions seeing this man "previously", it suggests to me she means before one o'clock, on her first vigil between 12:30 and 1:00.
This account was repeated nationwide on the same day so appears to be an agency source.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon. I don't suppose you could point me to any press accounts about him, could you?

Hi Joshua.

Just a brief account in Lloyds.

"Reports have been circulated this week of a man having been seen in the streets with a black bag about the time of the murders; but suspicion was removed by a young traveller named Goldstein coming forward and stating that he was in Berner-street."
Lloyds Weekly News, 7 Oct. 1888.

[Joshua Rogan]

Goldstein's appearance would have been of greater value if a time had been provided in his press account.

Hi Jon. I don't suppose you could point me to any press accounts about him, could you?

[Wickerman]

Goldstein's appearance would have been of greater value if a time had been provided in his press account.

[Joshua Rogan]

she,s contradicting herself within the same newspaper. it appears that she went from being at her door from 12:45ish to 12:55ish up to being at her door for the entire half hour. i think that your first example is more accurate, more telling. if she HEARD the tramp of the constable, that would place her INSIDE the house; or else, she would have stated, "i SAW the constable walk by..." if she had truly been at her doorstep. the second example really just generalizes her story from 12:30 to 1a, but picks up the detail regarding her account of what happened AFTER liz,s body was discovered.

MWR, i find it interesting that the doctor ended his times on the ,6,. he must have been looking at his watch on a ,6,... like 1:16a, and calculated that liz had been murdered (20 or 30) minutes ago.

Hi Robert,
With respect to Dr Blackwell's time....yes, he specifically says he consulted his watch when he arrived. Diemschutz says he noticed the time from the clock at the corner as he turned into Berner St from Commercial Road. It should be noted that at least Eagle, PCs Lamb and Collins and the doctors would most likely have passed this clock (but give no indication that they noticed it).

I'm not sure Fanny contradicts herself necessarily, so much as emphasising different details. The article that names Fanny was carried by most papers on the 1st Oct, but only the Daily News and Evening News carry the other one, so it's not like she told the same reporter two different versions. Her words leave it open that, as Michael says, she was in and out of her door in that half an hour, and for ten minutes solid after the policeman passed. Or she might have just been exaggerating, like a fisherman's tale, the time growing with each telling. It's even possible that the two reports are of different women who happened to be doing the same thing at the same time - after all, Mr Letchford at no.30 said "my sister was standing at the door at 10 minutes to one, but did not see anyone pass by". But my money's on Fanny.
There's also a third article in the Evening News;

"INTERVIEW WITH A NEIGHBOUR.

Some three doors from the gateway where the body of the first victim was discovered, I saw a clean, respectable-looking woman chatting with one or two neighbours. She was apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan, and formed a strong contrast to many of those around her. I got into conversation with her and found that she was one of the first on the spot.

TEN INCHES OF COLD STEEL.

"I was just about going to bed, sir, when I heard a call for the police. I ran to the door, and before I could open it I heard somebody say, 'Come out quick; there's a poor woman here that's had ten inches of cold steel in her.' I hurried out, and saw some two or three people standing in the gateway. Lewis, the man who looks after the Socialist Club at No. 40, was there, and his wife.
"Then I see a sight that turned me all sick and cold. There was the murdered woman a-lying on her side, with her throat cut across till her head seemed to be hanging by a bit of skin. Her legs was drawn up under her, and her head and the upper part of her body was soaked in blood. She was dressed in black as if she was in mourning for somebody.

MURDERED WITHIN SOUND OF MUSIC AND DANCING.

"Did you hear no sound of quarrelling, no cry for help?" I asked.
"Nothing of the sort, sir. I should think I must have heard it if the poor creature screamed at all, for I hadn't long come in from the door when I was roused, as I tell you, by that call for the police. But that was from the people as found the body. Mr. Lewis, who travels in cheap drapery things a bit now and again, had just drove into the yard when his horse shied at something that was lying in the corner. He thought 'twas a bundle of some kind till he got down from his cart and struck a light. Then he saw what it was and gave the alarm."
"Was the street quiet at the time?"
"Yes, there was hardly anybody moving about, except at the club. There was music and dancing going on there at the very time that that poor creature was being murdered at their very door, as one may say."

A MAN WITH A BLACK BAG!

" I suppose you did not notice a man and woman pass down the street while you were at the door?"
"No, sir. I think I should have noticed them if they had. Particularly if they'd been strangers, at that time o' night. I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand."
"Did you observe him closely, or notice anything in his appearance?"
"No, I didn't pay particular attention to him. He was respectably dressed, but was a stranger to me. He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club., A good many young men goes there, of a Saturday night especially."
That was all that my informant had to tell me. I wonder will the detectives think it worth while to satisfy themselves about that black bag?"