The Double Event

[Joshua Rogan]

Check Abraham Heschburg in the witness files for the Stride murder...."about quarter to 1...."

The full quote is "It was about a quarter to one o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter."
So whatever time he thought it might be, it was after the police had already arrived on site.

There's also nothing I can find to indicate he was a member of the club. He lived at 28 Berner St (some reports say 20) and didn't appear to know Louis Diemschutz.

[Joshua Rogan]

People were let out after they had been searched. And the gate was closed, its not clear if the wicket built into the left hand door...right from the inside,. also was.

According to PC Lamb's evidence, when he closed the gates "I put a constable at the gate and told him not to let anyone in or out"

He does however admit that although the front door was locked, there was no-one to guard it until "further assistance came".

It's also not clear whether people were let out one by one as they were dealt with, or en masses once they had all been searched and given statements, so happy to concede it's a possibility that Koz was interviewed within the hour. But there's nothing I've seen to indicate that is the case. The only interview I can recall with an actual time quoted is Heshberg, at 6am.

[Michael W Richards]

I'd be interested to know where you get the interview taking place within the hour. My understanding is that once the gates at the club were closed, no-one was allowed in or out for several hours.

People were let out after they had been searched. And the gate was closed, its not clear if the wicket built into the left hand door...right from the inside,. also was.

[Michael W Richards]

Morris Eagle mentions that a member called Gilleman told him of the body in the yard about 20 minutes after he returned to the club. I don't recall any interviews with him though.

Check Abraham Heschburg in the witness files for the Stride murder...."about quarter to 1...."

[Michael W Richards]

There's very good reason to think Isaac K and Isaacs are one and the same

Morning Advertiser 1st Oct
"A member of the club named Kozebrodski, but familiarly known as Isaacs, returned with Diemshitz into the court"

If youd prefer a reporters quote to one that came from the witness himself Josh, that's your call.

Read Issacs statement yourself....its in the witness files. He says he was sent out alone... around 12:45, possibly by Louis himself.

They are NOT the same person by that statement, and the club members did not report that 3 parties went out for help.

[Joshua Rogan]

It was someone named Gillen or Giller.

The writeup about Louis was obviously done before he and Isaac and some others attacked Policemen with clubs in that same yard a few months later.

Morris Eagle mentions that a member called Gilleman told him of the body in the yard about 20 minutes after he returned to the club. I don't recall any interviews with him though.

[Joshua Rogan]

Issac stated that he left, alone, at the request of Louis or another member. Meaning...there were actually 3 parties sent out looking for help, not 2, Issac alone at around 12:45..he saw no-one, Louis and Issac[s], whoever he was, and Eagle. Issac saw Eagle returning as he himself got back.

People have always assumed the Issac[s] was Kozebrodski, I believe his own words within an hour of the event refute that presumption.

There's very good reason to think Isaac K and Isaacs are one and the same

Morning Advertiser 1st Oct
"A member of the club named Kozebrodski, but familiarly known as Isaacs, returned with Diemshitz into the court"

[Michael W Richards]

Exactly.

Issac stated that he left, alone, at the request of Louis or another member. Meaning...there were actually 3 parties sent out looking for help, not 2, Issac alone at around 12:45..he saw no-one, Louis and Issac[s], whoever he was, and Eagle. Issac saw Eagle returning as he himself got back.

People have always assumed the Issac[s] was Kozebrodski, I believe his own words within an hour of the event refute that presumption.

[Joshua Rogan]

The quote from Kozebrodksi was a Daily News quote, and the interview took place about an hour after the body was discovered. Its very relevant, considering Issac's relationship with Louis and the large time discrepancy.

I'd be interested to know where you get the interview taking place within the hour. My understanding is that once the gates at the club were closed, no-one was allowed in or out for several hours.

[Michael W Richards]

Can you name the second club member (I presume the first was Kozebrodsky)?

The Evening News assesses Louis as follows;

"The above is an accurate statement of what Diemschitz told our representative. Diemschitz is a Russian Jew, but he speaks English perfectly. He is a man with more intelligence than is usually to be found amongst men of his class, and in every way is a credit to the neighbourhood in which he resides. This may not seem to be a compliment; but we mean it as such, for our informant is, so far as we are able to judge, an honest, truth-speaking man, on whose evidence we feel that we are able to rely."

It was someone named Gillen or Giller.

The writeup about Louis was obviously done before he and Isaac and some others attacked Policemen with clubs in that same yard a few months later.

[Michael W Richards]

With the greatest of respect, Mike, I feel like I`m going down the rabbit hole here, so before the White Knight starts talking backwards I`ll leave you with Diemshitz`s inquest testimony, make of it what you will:

I left home about half-past eleven in the morning, and returned exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I noticed the time at the baker's shop at the corner of Berner-street.

Daily Tel Oct 2nd 1888

I appreciate your wording Jon,...but I will add that Louis Diemshitz is the person onsite responsible for the club at the time of the discovery, meaning that the clubs reputation, the clubs future and the clubs present status would be far more important to him than being spot on with his timing.

If the club had been seen as possibly culpable in this murder, they would have been painted as the club that harbored Jack...as most everyone presumes is the culprit here, despite the contradictory physical evidence. They would have been closed, and Louis and his Mrs out of work. Might have damaged economically the entire Socialist presence in London at the time. Might also be why an official later erases a potentially accusatory message about Juewes/Jews/Jewes.

I believe its possible that Louis arrived earlier than he said, and he and some others took a few minutes to decide upon the best action to take based on the good of the club and the movement itself.

I'm not saying anyone attending that club that night killed her mind you, but I am saying that they would "cover their ass" regardless.

[Joshua Rogan]

There were 2 club members who stated that they were alerted to a body in the passageway before 12:45am Jon, as well as Spooners estimated time. That's 3 witnesses who corroborate each other, apparently without any prior discussions with the club steward.

Where else in the Stride case do you find 3 corroborating accounts? Louis has only his word, Schwartz has only his word, and for me, its highly probable that neither are unbiased witnesses.

Can you name the second club member (I presume the first was Kozebrodsky)?

The Evening News assesses Louis as follows;

"The above is an accurate statement of what Diemschitz told our representative. Diemschitz is a Russian Jew, but he speaks English perfectly. He is a man with more intelligence than is usually to be found amongst men of his class, and in every way is a credit to the neighbourhood in which he resides. This may not seem to be a compliment; but we mean it as such, for our informant is, so far as we are able to judge, an honest, truth-speaking man, on whose evidence we feel that we are able to rely."

[Jon Guy]

But whatever time he arrived, we know it was only as a result of Kozebrodsky and Diemschutz running down Fairclough Street after having found the body.

Exactly.

[Joshua Rogan]

Are you seriously basing your timings on Spooner and Koz`s statements to the press, Mike ?

To be fair, Spooner's evidence was given at the inquest, whereas Kozebrodsky wasn't called as a witness (possibly because, as the interviews make clear, he spoke English imperfectly). But Spooner contradicts himself, initially saying "between half past 12 and one o'clock on Sunday morning I was standing outside the Beehive public house", later saying "The only means I had of fixing the time was by the closing of the public houses. I stood at the top of the street for about five minutes, and then 25 minutes outside the public house." He then inexplicably calculates that "I should say it was about 25 minutes to one when I first went to the yard".
But whatever time he arrived, we know it was only as a result of Kozebrodsky and Diemschutz running down Fairclough Street after having found the body. If Spooner and Koz were correct about the time then the "trustworthy witness" somehow missed all this commotion.

[Jon Guy]

more simply put....Do I think its possible that Stride was killed 15-20 minutes before 1am? Yeah, I do.

That`s fair enough, Mike.
I believe Dr Blackwell testified that this could be the case.