The Double Event

[Michael W Richards]

Can you name the second club member (I presume the first was Kozebrodsky)?

The Evening News assesses Louis as follows;

"The above is an accurate statement of what Diemschitz told our representative. Diemschitz is a Russian Jew, but he speaks English perfectly. He is a man with more intelligence than is usually to be found amongst men of his class, and in every way is a credit to the neighbourhood in which he resides. This may not seem to be a compliment; but we mean it as such, for our informant is, so far as we are able to judge, an honest, truth-speaking man, on whose evidence we feel that we are able to rely."

It was someone named Gillen or Giller.

The writeup about Louis was obviously done before he and Isaac and some others attacked Policemen with clubs in that same yard a few months later.

[Joshua Rogan]

The quote from Kozebrodksi was a Daily News quote, and the interview took place about an hour after the body was discovered. Its very relevant, considering Issac's relationship with Louis and the large time discrepancy.

I'd be interested to know where you get the interview taking place within the hour. My understanding is that once the gates at the club were closed, no-one was allowed in or out for several hours.

[Michael W Richards]

Exactly.

Issac stated that he left, alone, at the request of Louis or another member. Meaning...there were actually 3 parties sent out looking for help, not 2, Issac alone at around 12:45..he saw no-one, Louis and Issac[s], whoever he was, and Eagle. Issac saw Eagle returning as he himself got back.

People have always assumed the Issac[s] was Kozebrodski, I believe his own words within an hour of the event refute that presumption.

[Joshua Rogan]

Issac stated that he left, alone, at the request of Louis or another member. Meaning...there were actually 3 parties sent out looking for help, not 2, Issac alone at around 12:45..he saw no-one, Louis and Issac[s], whoever he was, and Eagle. Issac saw Eagle returning as he himself got back.

People have always assumed the Issac[s] was Kozebrodski, I believe his own words within an hour of the event refute that presumption.

There's very good reason to think Isaac K and Isaacs are one and the same

Morning Advertiser 1st Oct
"A member of the club named Kozebrodski, but familiarly known as Isaacs, returned with Diemshitz into the court"

[Joshua Rogan]

It was someone named Gillen or Giller.

The writeup about Louis was obviously done before he and Isaac and some others attacked Policemen with clubs in that same yard a few months later.

Morris Eagle mentions that a member called Gilleman told him of the body in the yard about 20 minutes after he returned to the club. I don't recall any interviews with him though.

[Michael W Richards]

There's very good reason to think Isaac K and Isaacs are one and the same

Morning Advertiser 1st Oct
"A member of the club named Kozebrodski, but familiarly known as Isaacs, returned with Diemshitz into the court"

If youd prefer a reporters quote to one that came from the witness himself Josh, that's your call.

Read Issacs statement yourself....its in the witness files. He says he was sent out alone... around 12:45, possibly by Louis himself.

They are NOT the same person by that statement, and the club members did not report that 3 parties went out for help.

[Michael W Richards]

Morris Eagle mentions that a member called Gilleman told him of the body in the yard about 20 minutes after he returned to the club. I don't recall any interviews with him though.

Check Abraham Heschburg in the witness files for the Stride murder...."about quarter to 1...."

[Michael W Richards]

I'd be interested to know where you get the interview taking place within the hour. My understanding is that once the gates at the club were closed, no-one was allowed in or out for several hours.

People were let out after they had been searched. And the gate was closed, its not clear if the wicket built into the left hand door...right from the inside,. also was.

[Joshua Rogan]

People were let out after they had been searched. And the gate was closed, its not clear if the wicket built into the left hand door...right from the inside,. also was.

According to PC Lamb's evidence, when he closed the gates "I put a constable at the gate and told him not to let anyone in or out"

He does however admit that although the front door was locked, there was no-one to guard it until "further assistance came".

It's also not clear whether people were let out one by one as they were dealt with, or en masses once they had all been searched and given statements, so happy to concede it's a possibility that Koz was interviewed within the hour. But there's nothing I've seen to indicate that is the case. The only interview I can recall with an actual time quoted is Heshberg, at 6am.

[Joshua Rogan]

Check Abraham Heschburg in the witness files for the Stride murder...."about quarter to 1...."

The full quote is "It was about a quarter to one o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter."
So whatever time he thought it might be, it was after the police had already arrived on site.

There's also nothing I can find to indicate he was a member of the club. He lived at 28 Berner St (some reports say 20) and didn't appear to know Louis Diemschutz.

[Joshua Rogan]

If youd prefer a reporters quote to one that came from the witness himself Josh, that's your call.

Read Issacs statement yourself....its in the witness files. He says he was sent out alone... around 12:45, possibly by Louis himself.

They are NOT the same person by that statement, and the club members did not report that 3 parties went out for help.

I can't see anything in his statement(s) where he says he was alone - just because he doesn't mention anyone else doesn't mean nobody else was there. In his Evening News interview, for instance, he says "I immediately went for a policeman, and ran in the direction of Grove-street, but could not find one. Then I went into the Commercial-road, where I found two policemen."
No mention of anyone else, despite mentioning Eagle in other interviews, and PC Lamb saying two men found him. So yes, just because he says "I immediately went for a policeman" it doesn't mean that Louis D wasn't right behind him.

Oh, and "the club" did report a third party searching for a PC - Phillip Krantz (at inquest) says "I went out into the street to look for a policeman".

[Joshua Rogan]

People were let out after they had been searched. And the gate was closed, its not clear if the wicket built into the left hand door...right from the inside,. also was.

According to West's evidence the wicket was in the Northern gate, which by my reckoning would be the right-hand gate looking for the street.

[John G]

The full quote is "It was about a quarter to one o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter."
So whatever time he thought it might be, it was after the police had already arrived on site.

There's also nothing I can find to indicate he was a member of the club. He lived at 28 Berner St (some reports say 20) and didn't appear to know Louis Diemschutz.

Agreed. And PC Lamb arrived on site at about 1:05, so Heschburg must have been way out with his time estimate-as was Edward Spooner, who thought it was about 12:35 .

[John G]

There were 2 club members who stated that they were alerted to a body in the passageway before 12:45am Jon, as well as Spooners estimated time. That's 3 witnesses who corroborate each other, apparently without any prior discussions with the club steward.

Where else in the Stride case do you find 3 corroborating accounts? Louis has only his word, Schwartz has only his word, and for me, its highly probable that neither are unbiased witnesses.

Spooner gave a different time to the other witnesses so in what sense are their statements"corroborated"?

[John G]

There are witnesses, including Issac Kozebrodski, who claim to have been alerted about a body in the passage around 12:40-12:45. Issac also claimed he was sent out alone to look for help shortly thereafter..by Louis.

I suppose its all in whom you rest your hopes on.

And your final statement seems to contradict Israel Schwartz....not that I'm opposed to that, there are many questionable elements to that story.

Yes, I consider Schwartz to be a highly questionable witness.