The Double Event

[c.d.]

Well then we have to disagree, Abby. There are too many red flags for me to go with the B.S. man as Stride's killer and for the peaked cap just how common were they at the time?

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

Well then we have to disagree, Abby. There are too many red flags for me to go with the B.S. man as Stride's killer and for the peaked cap just how common were they at the time?

c.d.

No worries. It's just my opinion.

I'm sure they are about as common as peaked caps (baseball caps) are now.
That's to say probably fairly common. But if it was the same situation just transposed to now-I'm pretty sure that the detective today would conclude that the killer was wearing a baseball cap and that they were all probably the same man.

I will concede that of the c 5, I have stride as the least likely of them to be a ripper victim, but not by much.

I will also concede, that I seem to see more similarities, patterns and less coincidences than most on here.

[c.d.]

Hello Abby,

Why do you think the B.S. man went on to kill Stride after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man? It would be a reasonable assumption that Schwartz had run off to find the nearest P.C. who was now making his way back to the scene. Also, had the B.S. man not killed Stride he would simply be accused of pushing a woman to the ground. Hardly a hanging offense.

c.d.

[Ginger]

Triple murder, if you we include Sarah Brown. Does this reduce the likelihood of Stride & Eddowe's murders being connected or the reverse?

I'd argue that it does neither. Murder was a rare enough crime that I don't think we can conclude much at all from unadorned statistical arguments. We ought, instead, to rely on what can be determined about the murderer or murderers by his or their behaviour, and by what evidence was left behind.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby,

Why do you think the B.S. man went on to kill Stride after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man? It would be a reasonable assumption that Schwartz had run off to find the nearest P.C. who was now making his way back to the scene. Also, had the B.S. man not killed Stride he would simply be accused of pushing a woman to the ground. Hardly a hanging offense.

c.d.

Hi cd
First of all we don't know he knew he was seen by pipe man. Agree that he probably knew or thought that a PC would be back soon. Which is why stride probably wound up with only a cut throat.

I actually think that bs man might have cut her throat on the street and that Schwartz, while witnessing the attack, didn't actually see that specific part of it.
I think stride didn't realize that she was in mortal danger until it was too late. Which may be why she didnt yell out very loudly. Once she realized her throat had been cut she tried to make her way towards the sounds of the club and perceived safety/help, only to expire in the yard.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Hello Abby,

Why do you think the B.S. man went on to kill Stride after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man? It would be a reasonable assumption that Schwartz had run off to find the nearest P.C. who was now making his way back to the scene. Also, had the B.S. man not killed Stride he would simply be accused of pushing a woman to the ground. Hardly a hanging offense.

c.d.

Agreed
And with Stride screaming [albeit not very loudly] who is to say that someone like Fanny Mortimer might not have heard it, come to the door and witnessed it as well. Two witnesses, one who definitely saw BS man, which he knew, with the possibility of more. And who is to say that Stride would not have put up more of a fight , and other witnesses would have seen/heard this, rushed to her aid, outside a busy club [ no sudden blitz attack here, grabbing her quickly by the throat, thus silencing her etc ], and caught him red handed [so to speak], with a knife in his hand. No, doesn't sound like Jack to me.

[John G]

A moderately cut throat preceded by a violent struggle outside a noisy club, versus (apparently) a "coochie-coo" smooch outside a practicallly deserted Mitre Square followed by a savagely cut throat, disembowelment and nasty facial mutilations.

I don't see much of a pattern there, either in the killer's approach or in the outcome.

A moderately cut throat? Dr Phillips: "The carotid artery on the left side and the other vessels contained in the sheath were all cut through, save the posterior portion of the carotid..." Dr Phillips also noted, "The throat was deeply gashed." (The emphasis is mine).

Seems like a severely cut throat to me.

Regarding the "violent struggle'. This is completely dependent on Schwartz's evidence which, for numerous reasons discussed at length in previous threads, I consider to be highly dubious.

[Harry D]

Regarding the "violent struggle'. This is completely dependent on Schwartz's evidence which, for numerous reasons discussed at length in previous threads, I consider to be highly dubious.

Agreed, John. I'm reluctant to take Schwartz at face value when his testimony is uncorroborated and unsupported by the facts. Everything points to a blitz attack on Stride but Schwartz would have us believe that Stride's killer was an antisemitic brute roughing up his victim in the street, even though Fanny Mortimer never heard a thing and the elusive 'Pipe Man' never came forward to back it up. 'BS Man' was a Jewish invention to deflect suspicion away from the socialists club.

[The Station Cat]

Hi cat
Stride was a ripper victim.

All the witnesses the night of the double event describe a man with a peaked cap. marshall, PC smith, Scwartz at the Stride scene. Lawende at the Eddowes scene.

The ripper was wearing a peaked cap the night of the double event. To me its the final straw that connects stride with Eddowes to the same man.

Okay Abby, you've got my attention.

But one question, how common were peaked caps as a form of head dress during the period? I fear it would be like saying he was seen in a tracksuit if it happened today?

I'm in no doubt Stride was murdered by the guy Schwartz saw pushing her to the floor (was that Jack???). What are the odds or her coming to blows with another assailant shortly afterwards, who befriends her then kills her. Jack then walks all the way Mitre square past numerous police officers, vigilantes and members of the public (having just cut some women's throat and been disturbed as we are lead to believe). He then finds another victim who he again befriends in a few minutes, kills her cuts her up (all within a very small period of time). Then walks to Goulston Street, drops the bloody apron (I'm not going down the graffiti route), then makes good his escape past all the police, etc and back "home".

[The Station Cat]

I believe Stride got into a bit of bother with person or persons unknown, had her throat cut as a result. Everyone just assumed it was Jack like they did for several other well documented women.

Meantime while Jack happens across Eddowes in Mitre Square does the deed (possibly unaware of what was unfolding in Berner Street). Makes his way "home" discarding the apron en route.


If we also take into account the increased level of injury from Nichols to Kelly each one more savage than the one before we have a pattern?

[Abby Normal]

wow. I'm surprised so many discount Schwartz-hes a perfectly legitamite witness.

[Abby Normal]

Okay Abby, you've got my attention.

But one question, how common were peaked caps as a form of head dress during the period? I fear it would be like saying he was seen in a tracksuit if it happened today?

I'm in no doubt Stride was murdered by the guy Schwartz saw pushing her to the floor (was that Jack???). What are the odds or her coming to blows with another assailant shortly afterwards, who befriends her then kills her. Jack then walks all the way Mitre square past numerous police officers, vigilantes and members of the public (having just cut some women's throat and been disturbed as we are lead to believe). He then finds another victim who he again befriends in a few minutes, kills her cuts her up (all within a very small period of time). Then walks to Goulston Street, drops the bloody apron (I'm not going down the graffiti route), then makes good his escape past all the police, etc and back "home".

Hi Cat
I'm sure they were fairly common. But when you have multiple witnesses at the stride scene and eddowes scene all claiming to see the victim with a man with a peaked cap I think its a safe conclusion that its the same man. It made an impression with Abberline. see my sig below.

If you look at the whole series of events that night I think we can see a fairly reasonable sequence of what took place.

The ripper is out hunting. He meets Stride-perhaps out in a pub.Shes recently broken up with kidney-perhaps shes out looking for another boyfriend/sugar daddy but not necessarily actively solicitating. Along with that Leather apron scare is in full on mode so maybe shes wary of that too and isn't going to jump right in the sack with first man she meets.

Her and BS man/ripper are seen by several witnesses over the course of some time. Hes trying to finagle her into a secluded place, but because of afore mentioned reasons she reluctant.

Marshall witnesses them together and hears the man say-"you would say anything but your prayers." funny thing to say-what kind of conversation would exhibit such a response? Well if best and gardner saw Stride, they had said to her when they saw her with a man earlier at a pub- "that's leather Apron getting around you". maybe that's in the back of her mind then.

I believe her conversation that marshall witnessed the end of, may have gone something like this:

Stride: (half jokingly) Your not Leather Apron are you?
Man: (also half jokingly)You never know.
Stride: Well I had better say my prayers.
Man: you would say anything but your prayers

Hes trying to get her into a secluded place but shes not going. hes getting a little frustrsated. hes with her now near the club and PC Smith witnessed them and passes by. The ripper/BS man agitated by the cop tries one more time to get her in the ally, She refuses and he cuts his loss and leaves her fuming. As hes walking away he thinks of the time and possibly money (drinks, the flower maybe?) hes wasted on her, looses his temper and turns around angrily and returns to her. this is where Schwartz enters the scene. He assaults her, sees heavily looking jewish Schwartz see it, yells Lipski! to scare him off. around this point he cuts her throat. maybe there on the street, maybe in the yard and maybe also disturbed yet again by another jew in Diemshitz. Its getting to hot so he bolts.

Not satisfied, he goes to look for another victim but stops in Church street to gain his composure, maybe wipe his hands, knife ect. This is where anonymous sighting takes place.

He soon after finds Eddowes, drunk and maybe desperate to get some quick coin, and shes more amenable to engaging in an act of prostitution and accompany him to a secluded spot. This is where Lawende and company see him schmoozing her outside Mitre square. again more jews.

He gets her in mitre square, kills, mutilates her and makes off with his trophy to his bolt hole. But hes still angered at all the jews that interrupted him, jews who will shortly probably giving the police HIS description.

So he cleans up a bit, stashed the knife and trophy, grabs some chalk and heads out to write the GSG and "sign" it with Eddowes bloody apron-to get back at said jews and to perhaps divert police attention in that direction. This would explain why it wasn't there when Long went by the first time.

He goes back to his bolt hole to enjoy an evening with his goodies probably reliving the fantasy and reveling in the fact that the police, witnesses and all of London is in a tizzy.

[Harry D]

wow. I'm surprised so many discount Schwartz-hes a perfectly legitamite witness.

Schwartz's account is questionable at best.

Stride's murder would suggest that she was either taken by surprise and/or at ease with her killer shortly before her death. I don't suppose she was clenching those cachous for dear life while her assailant was dragging her into the yard for a good ripping.

We only have Schwartz's word for it that this altercation took place. His evidence conflicts with Fanny Mortimer who was stood two doors down from the scene of the crime and didn't hear or see anything untoward at this time.

[Jon Guy]

We only have Schwartz's word for it that this altercation took place. .

Was it a coincidence that Schwartz picked a time (12.45) that none of the other witnesses could account for ?

His evidence conflicts with Fanny Mortimer who was stood two doors down from the scene of the crime and didn't hear or see anything untoward at this time.

Did Mortimer say she was at her door at 12.45 ?
Could she see the club gates from her doorway ?

[John G]

Schwartz's account is questionable at best.

Stride's murder would suggest that she was either taken by surprise and/or at ease with her killer shortly before her death. I don't suppose she was clenching those cachous for dear life while her assailant was dragging her into the yard for a good ripping.

We only have Schwartz's word for it that this altercation took place. His evidence conflicts with Fanny Mortimer who was stood two doors down from the scene of the crime and didn't hear or see anything untoward at this time.

Good points Harry. Plus there are newspaper accounts stating that the police had reason to doubt Schwartz's evidence. And, of course, Abberline appeared to abandon him as a witness when he subsequently argued that anyone who had seen the Ripper had only had a back view. Finally, we have to ask why Lawende was preferred as a witness, for subsequent identifications, despite the fact that he clearly had a more obscure view of a suspect than Schwartz.