Time Of Death

[John G]

Nice find John.
Yes it's not reliable, certainly not to tell if death occurred 60 or 120 minutes ago.


Steve

Thanks Steve. As I keep noting, there are no reliable means for ascertaining time of death!

[packers stem]

Nice find John.
Yes it's not reliable, certainly not to tell if death occurred 60 or 120 minutes ago.


Steve

Can't view it for some reason .....

like I said , anything will be argued if somebody really wants it .
I'm talking about probability .
I am in no doubt that had Richardson walked into the yard 5 minutes prior to Davies then that would be our TOD even if she were stone cold and stiff as a board with a heavy evening meal still resting in her stomach.
I expect little else

[packers stem]

Thanks Steve. As I keep noting, there are no reliable means for ascertaining time of death!

Nothing is reliable John
But we have a combination suggesting the TOD was earlier.
And you have to ignore them all to come up with a 5.30 TOD clinging to the "unreliable" to back up a theory

[Elamarna]

Nothing is reliable John
But we have a combination suggesting the TOD was earlier.
And you have to ignore them all to come up with a 5.30 TOD clinging to the "unreliable" to back up a theory

No Nick, the combination you speak of is :

1. Phillips magically ascribing death by touch to 120 minutes previous to his arrival, not 60, not 90, but at least 120.
However, there were no methods he could use that were that specific.
If you believe there were , I am happy to hear about it.

2. The digestion issue. The link John supplied makes it clear for those who don't have the information that it is simply not as straight forward as you suggest.
In addition, and linked, Phillips give no indication of how much food he found, which is very important.

So your "ignore them all" is in reality ignoring nothing,
We are not clinging to "unreliable" but embracing science.
Unfortunately that combination of indicators you wish to deploy, are simply not indicators at all.


Steve

[John G]

Nothing is reliable John
But we have a combination suggesting the TOD was earlier.
And you have to ignore them all to come up with a 5.30 TOD clinging to the "unreliable" to back up a theory

What combination?

[packers stem]

No Nick, the combination you speak of is :

1. Phillips magically ascribing death by touch to 120 minutes previous to his arrival, not 60, not 90, but at least 120.
However, there were no methods he could use that were that specific.
If you believe there were , I am happy to hear about it.

2. The digestion issue. The link John supplied makes it clear for those who don't have the information that it is simply not as straight forward as you suggest.
In addition, and linked, Phillips give no indication of how much food he found, which is very important.

So your "ignore them all" is in reality ignoring nothing,
We are not clinging to "unreliable" but embracing science.
Unfortunately that combination of indicators you wish to deploy, are simply not indicators at all.


Steve

So while we're in the business of embracing science a 10.30 TOD in Millers Court is likely?
I know you will say yes Steve
Not so sure about the others
Maybe the fish and chips from thursday evening was undigested enough for Bond to determine what it was .....

[packers stem]

What combination?

Phillips
Potato
Where the hell was she for the best part of four hours

[John G]

Phillips
Potato
Where the hell was she for the best part of four hours

As I keep noting, gastric emptying is a highly unreliable time of death indicator, as is body loss. Dr Phillips' view on this point is therefore virtually worthless.

Here's another forensic science article highlighting the point: https://link.springer.com/article/10...024-016-9791-z

[packers stem]

As I keep noting, gastric emptying is a highly unreliable time of death indicator, as is body loss. Dr Phillips' view on this point is therefore virtually worthless.

Here's another forensic science article highlighting the point: https://link.springer.com/article/10...024-016-9791-z

According to that there was also no way to judge how old bruises were so the bruises on Chapman's jaw and on Nichols could have been days old ......
or
we could go for probability instead of always looking for the extremes

If potato typically digests in around an hour , is it really reasonable for us to claim that in Chapman's case it still hadn't digested 3 hours and 45 minutes later ?
I believe that is unreasonable .

[packers stem]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.iosrjournals.org/iosr-jdms/papers/Vol16-issue10/Version-10/G1610102635.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjMwrCe3IrjAhXrRBUIHZ-fC2IQFjAQegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw1LzdiGRsB8lXvoyUT3okrf

whole lot of reading and charts but the basic important info was on page 2
In that ....

A light meal you can expect to digest in half an hour to two hours

and

that carbohydrates are the quickest to digest .

We know she ate a potato
We also know that a potato is a light meal and a carbohydrate

So you have light meal combined with carbohydrate = considerably less than two hours in all likelihood

You will make of it what you will

You may also spot the 30 minutes for fish in there ....
Bond's spotting of fish and potato with the naked eye was nothing short of miraculous

[FISHY1118]

like i said cadoschs statement is not proof jtr was in the back yard of 29 hanbury st between 5.15 and 5.26 . So twist it any way you like , sugar coat it any way as well . Still not 100 % proof.

[FISHY1118]

The back yard of 29 Hanbury ,Annie Chapman body was found between the fence and the steps below the door, would that be a fair statement. ?.....distance from fence to steps approx 3 feet . no/yes ?

Question... is that the rear door to the back yard of number 27 Hanbury st on the other side of the fence .?


post 42 gives a better pic that can be enlarged.

[John G]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...B8lXvoyUT3okrf

whole lot of reading and charts but the basic important info was on page 2
In that ....

A light meal you can expect to digest in half an hour to two hours

and

that carbohydrates are the quickest to digest .

We know she ate a potato
We also know that a potato is a light meal and a carbohydrate

So you have light meal combined with carbohydrate = considerably less than two hours in all likelihood

You will make of it what you will

You may also spot the 30 minutes for fish in there ....
Bond's spotting of fish and potato with the naked eye was nothing short of miraculous

As I've pointed out several times now, gastric emptying is not a reliable indicator of time of death. Using words like "expect" or "usually" doesn't help, because many cases don't conform to "usual" parameters: see http://viewfromwilmington.blogspot.c...-estimate.html

You will note the pizza case in the above reference, where the time of death was put at 1-3 hours, although the victim had been seen alive 4.5 to 5.5 hours after last meal.

[John G]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...B8lXvoyUT3okrf

whole lot of reading and charts but the basic important info was on page 2
In that ....

A light meal you can expect to digest in half an hour to two hours

and

that carbohydrates are the quickest to digest .

We know she ate a potato
We also know that a potato is a light meal and a carbohydrate

So you have light meal combined with carbohydrate = considerably less than two hours in all likelihood

You will make of it what you will

You may also spot the 30 minutes for fish in there ....
Bond's spotting of fish and potato with the naked eye was nothing short of miraculous

Regarding the reference you cite, which I'd also looked at, the crucial part is actual this:

"However, a head injury, physical or mental shock or stress may completely inhibit the secretion of gastric juice, the motility of the stomach, and the opening of the pylorus, and undigested food may be seen after more than 24 hours. Any illness, or emotional stress, may prolonged the emptyimg time for many hours."

Now, Chapman had indeed been ill-she'd discussed visiting the casual ward. And as she'd been walking the streets for several hours, and was under threat of eviction, I would say she would have been under a great deal of "emotional stress". Wouldn't you?

[packers stem]

It was a POTATO
It takes next to no time to digest
It wasn't a banquet lol