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  • #61
    Originally posted by Elamarna View Post

    Nice find John.
    Yes it's not reliable, certainly not to tell if death occurred 60 or 120 minutes ago.


    Steve
    Thanks Steve. As I keep noting, there are no reliable means for ascertaining time of death!

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Elamarna View Post

      Nice find John.
      Yes it's not reliable, certainly not to tell if death occurred 60 or 120 minutes ago.


      Steve
      Can't view it for some reason .....

      like I said , anything will be argued if somebody really wants it .
      I'm talking about probability .
      I am in no doubt that had Richardson walked into the yard 5 minutes prior to Davies then that would be our TOD even if she were stone cold and stiff as a board with a heavy evening meal still resting in her stomach.
      I expect little else
      You can lead a horse to water.....

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by John G View Post

        Thanks Steve. As I keep noting, there are no reliable means for ascertaining time of death!
        Nothing is reliable John
        But we have a combination suggesting the TOD was earlier.
        And you have to ignore them all to come up with a 5.30 TOD clinging to the "unreliable" to back up a theory
        You can lead a horse to water.....

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by packers stem View Post

          Nothing is reliable John
          But we have a combination suggesting the TOD was earlier.
          And you have to ignore them all to come up with a 5.30 TOD clinging to the "unreliable" to back up a theory
          No Nick, the combination you speak of is :

          1. Phillips magically ascribing death by touch to 120 minutes previous to his arrival, not 60, not 90, but at least 120.
          However, there were no methods he could use that were that specific.
          If you believe there were , I am happy to hear about it.

          2. The digestion issue. The link John supplied makes it clear for those who don't have the information that it is simply not as straight forward as you suggest.
          In addition, and linked, Phillips give no indication of how much food he found, which is very important.

          So your "ignore them all" is in reality ignoring nothing,
          We are not clinging to "unreliable" but embracing science.
          Unfortunately that combination of indicators you wish to deploy, are simply not indicators at all.


          Steve

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by packers stem View Post

            Nothing is reliable John
            But we have a combination suggesting the TOD was earlier.
            And you have to ignore them all to come up with a 5.30 TOD clinging to the "unreliable" to back up a theory
            What combination?

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Elamarna View Post

              No Nick, the combination you speak of is :

              1. Phillips magically ascribing death by touch to 120 minutes previous to his arrival, not 60, not 90, but at least 120.
              However, there were no methods he could use that were that specific.
              If you believe there were , I am happy to hear about it.

              2. The digestion issue. The link John supplied makes it clear for those who don't have the information that it is simply not as straight forward as you suggest.
              In addition, and linked, Phillips give no indication of how much food he found, which is very important.

              So your "ignore them all" is in reality ignoring nothing,
              We are not clinging to "unreliable" but embracing science.
              Unfortunately that combination of indicators you wish to deploy, are simply not indicators at all.


              Steve
              So while we're in the business of embracing science a 10.30 TOD in Millers Court is likely?
              I know you will say yes Steve
              Not so sure about the others
              Maybe the fish and chips from thursday evening was undigested enough for Bond to determine what it was .....
              You can lead a horse to water.....

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by John G View Post

                What combination?
                Phillips
                Potato
                Where the hell was she for the best part of four hours
                You can lead a horse to water.....

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by packers stem View Post

                  Phillips
                  Potato
                  Where the hell was she for the best part of four hours
                  As I keep noting, gastric emptying is a highly unreliable time of death indicator, as is body loss. Dr Phillips' view on this point is therefore virtually worthless.

                  Here's another forensic science article highlighting the point: https://link.springer.com/article/10...024-016-9791-z
                  Last edited by John G; 06-27-2019, 08:48 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by John G View Post

                    As I keep noting, gastric emptying is a highly unreliable time of death indicator, as is body loss. Dr Phillips' view on this point is therefore virtually worthless.

                    Here's another forensic science article highlighting the point: https://link.springer.com/article/10...024-016-9791-z
                    According to that there was also no way to judge how old bruises were so the bruises on Chapman's jaw and on Nichols could have been days old ......
                    or
                    we could go for probability instead of always looking for the extremes

                    If potato typically digests in around an hour , is it really reasonable for us to claim that in Chapman's case it still hadn't digested 3 hours and 45 minutes later ?
                    I believe that is unreasonable .
                    You can lead a horse to water.....

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...B8lXvoyUT3okrf

                      whole lot of reading and charts but the basic important info was on page 2
                      In that ....

                      A light meal you can expect to digest in half an hour to two hours

                      and

                      that carbohydrates are the quickest to digest .

                      We know she ate a potato
                      We also know that a potato is a light meal and a carbohydrate

                      So you have light meal combined with carbohydrate = considerably less than two hours in all likelihood

                      You will make of it what you will

                      You may also spot the 30 minutes for fish in there ....
                      Bond's spotting of fish and potato with the naked eye was nothing short of miraculous
                      Last edited by packers stem; 06-27-2019, 11:21 PM.
                      You can lead a horse to water.....

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        like i said cadoschs statement is not proof jtr was in the back yard of 29 hanbury st between 5.15 and 5.26 . So twist it any way you like , sugar coat it any way as well . Still not 100 % proof.

                        Comment


                        • #72

                          The back yard of 29 Hanbury ,Annie Chapman body was found between the fence and the steps below the door, would that be a fair statement. ?.....distance from fence to steps approx 3 feet . no/yes ?

                          Question... is that the rear door to the back yard of number 27 Hanbury st on the other side of the fence .?


                          post 42 gives a better pic that can be enlarged.
                          Last edited by FISHY1118; 06-28-2019, 04:17 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by packers stem View Post
                            https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...B8lXvoyUT3okrf

                            whole lot of reading and charts but the basic important info was on page 2
                            In that ....

                            A light meal you can expect to digest in half an hour to two hours

                            and

                            that carbohydrates are the quickest to digest .

                            We know she ate a potato
                            We also know that a potato is a light meal and a carbohydrate

                            So you have light meal combined with carbohydrate = considerably less than two hours in all likelihood

                            You will make of it what you will

                            You may also spot the 30 minutes for fish in there ....
                            Bond's spotting of fish and potato with the naked eye was nothing short of miraculous
                            As I've pointed out several times now, gastric emptying is not a reliable indicator of time of death. Using words like "expect" or "usually" doesn't help, because many cases don't conform to "usual" parameters: see http://viewfromwilmington.blogspot.c...-estimate.html

                            You will note the pizza case in the above reference, where the time of death was put at 1-3 hours, although the victim had been seen alive 4.5 to 5.5 hours after last meal.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by packers stem View Post
                              https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...B8lXvoyUT3okrf

                              whole lot of reading and charts but the basic important info was on page 2
                              In that ....

                              A light meal you can expect to digest in half an hour to two hours

                              and

                              that carbohydrates are the quickest to digest .

                              We know she ate a potato
                              We also know that a potato is a light meal and a carbohydrate

                              So you have light meal combined with carbohydrate = considerably less than two hours in all likelihood

                              You will make of it what you will

                              You may also spot the 30 minutes for fish in there ....
                              Bond's spotting of fish and potato with the naked eye was nothing short of miraculous
                              Regarding the reference you cite, which I'd also looked at, the crucial part is actual this:

                              "However, a head injury, physical or mental shock or stress may completely inhibit the secretion of gastric juice, the motility of the stomach, and the opening of the pylorus, and undigested food may be seen after more than 24 hours. Any illness, or emotional stress, may prolonged the emptyimg time for many hours."

                              Now, Chapman had indeed been ill-she'd discussed visiting the casual ward. And as she'd been walking the streets for several hours, and was under threat of eviction, I would say she would have been under a great deal of "emotional stress". Wouldn't you?
                              Last edited by John G; 06-28-2019, 07:18 AM.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                It was a POTATO
                                It takes next to no time to digest
                                It wasn't a banquet lol
                                You can lead a horse to water.....

                                Comment

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