Time Of Death

[Michael W Richards]

Interesting.
So maybe, after the double event, he finds it too difficult to work outside as every man and his dog are on the look out for him. So he goes inside with Kelly. But finds no thrill in working inside. So that's it. He just disappears.

That's an interesting idea based on my post, but I don't see the same man indoors in room 13 at all. That fellow was lost, he had no focus, no appreciable knife or anatomy skills, and he was angry based on defensive wounds and a face so badly slashed a flap of her forehead skin hung over her eyes afterward. I don't see Polly or Annies killer as demonstrably emotional in any way.

[Elamarna]

Interesting how in the case of Nichols ,Stride and Eddowes the t.o.d given by the medical doctors when they first examining the bodies seems to be pretty much spot on according to the witness statements and police reports. Where as in Chapman's case according to one doctor it was so far out, or was he ? Thoughts anyone .

OK, about time some sense was spoken, rather than speculation based on a lack of knowledge, so far displayed here.

Let's deal with the claim that Fishy has proved the TODs are accurate, here certainly have not.
All he has shown is that the doctors took the witness statements into account. There is no evidence, presented by either Fishy, or indeed the doctors themselves which show that these Guesses by the doctors were in any way based on science or medicine.

Rather, we must accept that given we have police and witness statements for each of those 3, which demonstrate the bodies were not present when those areas were last viewed. It is inconceivable that the doctors would not rely very heavily on those reports and statements.

However, let's follow the suggestion that the doctors were able to fit a TOD to the minute, something certainly not possible today, if you doubt me check with a forensic pathologist.

What methods did they use to arrive at these times? Any idea Fishy?

They used Touch, did a body feel warm or cold. A method that no medic would use today, it is highly subjective, for both victim and Doctor, completely unable to give a TOD using that method. Again if you dont believe me, ask an expert.

They used Rigor Mortis and Livor Mortis, neither of which are 100% reliable to the minute. In 1888, it was NOT known that Rigor could set in almost instantly in some cases.
And of course neither method could be used to tell the difference between 1 hour and say 2 hours, it simply does not work like that.

In the Kelly case they also used digestion rates, however these again are not set in stone, nor are they of use unless you can be sure of the time of the meal.

What they did not use was internal body temperature, which is the most reliable method. No body temperature internal or external were recorded. However, it needs to be stressed that even when applied correctly this method cannot pinpoint death to within an hour. such is the stuff of fiction i am very much afraid

The reply from those who wish to dispute this often is, that somehow their Experience gave them some unknown magical skill.

I am always astounded by such utterly ridiculous claims on TOD.


Steve

[Elamarna]

The obvious may not seem that obvious when we look at the inquest testimonies of Mrs Long and Mr Albert Cadosch.''I got up about a quarter past five in the morning, and went into the yard. It was then about twenty minutes past five, I should think. As I returned towards the back door I heard a voice say "No" just as I was going through the door.''

Mrs. Elizabeth Long said: I live in Church-row, Whitechapel, and my husband, James Long, is a cart minder. On Saturday, Sept. 8, about half past five o'clock in the morning, I was passing down Hanbury-street, from home, on my way to Spitalfields Market. I knew the time, because I heard the brewer's clock strike half-past five just before I got to the street. I passed 29, Hanbury-street. On the right-hand side, the same side as the house, I saw a man and a woman standing on the pavement talking. The man's back was turned towards Brick-lane, and the woman's was towards the market. They were standing only a few yards nearer Brick-lane from 29, Hanbury-street. I saw the woman's face. Have seen the deceased in the mortuary, and I am sure the woman that I saw in Hanbury-street was the deceased.

Long was sure the women she saw was Chapman and it was 5.30 when she entered handbury street , so it had to be at least 1 to 2 minutes before she passed Chapman and her companion. Then another minute for them to enter through the passage to the spot she supposedly said ''no'' which makes it 5.33 before shes on the murder spot.

13 minutes after Cadosch heard someone say ''no''....... THAT ''NO'' wasn't Chapman if were to believe Mrs Longs account .


Now im only going on what they both gave in evidents at the official inquest, thats all we can go on , saying or making excuse for their times being wrong or inaccurate for what ever reason would be to change the testmonie to suit another narrative .

i think with all due respect, you need to understand that times given in 1888 are not, and cannot be set in stone set in stone, there was no synchronised time full stop.
Times could be many minutes out. you appear to be using 21st century perspectives on 19th century issues.

It is not changing to fit another narrative, it is an acceptance of the actual facts.

The major issue with Chapman, is not Long( who is less than convincing) nor Cadosch, but Richardson.


Steve.

[Herlock Sholmes]

[QUOTE]. That TOD estimations were unreliable and could be wildly inaccurate?......... rubbish... my post already prove that 3 doctors were right with there time of death . subject closed move on . admit you were wrong . [QUOTE]

This is one of Fishy’s posts on TOD.

[Herlock Sholmes]

i think with all due respect, you need to understand that times given in 1888 are not, and cannot be set in stone set in stone, there was no synchronised time full stop.
Times could be many minutes out. you appear to be using 21st century perspectives on 19th century issues.

It is not changing to fit another narrative, it is an acceptance of the actual facts.

The major issue with Chapman, is not Long( who is less than convincing) nor Cadosch, but Richardson.


Steve.

Exactly

[FISHY1118]

[QUOTE]. That TOD estimations were unreliable and could be wildly inaccurate?......... rubbish... my post already prove that 3 doctors were right with there time of death . subject closed move on . admit you were wrong . [QUOTE]

thanks for posting my reply . 3 doctored were right in time of death .


Another, ''times weren't set in stone'' line . No point even trying to discuss it.

[Elamarna]

[QUOTE=FISHY1118;n714759][QUOTE]. That TOD estimations were unreliable and could be wildly inaccurate?......... rubbish... my post already prove that 3 doctors were right with there time of death . subject closed move on . admit you were wrong .

thanks for posting my reply . 3 doctored were right in time of death .


Another, ''times weren't set in stone'' line . No point even trying to discuss it.

The TODs you claim are accurate, do not actually give a time of death that can be verified by science or medicine.

What medical information is there that those times are correct?

How exactly are they proven?

PLEASE tell me?

The reason it is ASSUMED they are reasonably accurate is simply BECAUSE they used witness statements, which said the bodies were not present a number of minutes before. It's nothing to do with medical knowledge.

It appears that you do not accept the opinions of forensic Pathologists, why is that?

That you refuse to accept ANY of this, in favour of your own beliefs, is not only a tad arrogant, but also demonstrates both a closed mind, and a lack of knowledge.

I ask you, specifically what medical skill or knowledge allowed the doctors to set a TOD?

What ability allowed Phillips to override the statement of Richardson.


Come on my friend, fight your corner, rather than glib comments that achieve nothing.

With regards to time is not worth debating, withbsuch an attitude there is no hope of advancing any sensible theory.

Following your somewhat fixed reasoning let's look at how that plays out in say Bucks Row, based on a given time of 3.45.

Robert Paul, enters Bucks Row at Brady St at the same time he meets Jonas Mizen in Bakers Row . This occurs at the same time that John Thain also enters Bucks Row, apparently from the same place as Paul, and of course it all happens the same time Neil finds the body.


To disregard the serious timing issues, again with glib replies, that imply an unwilliness to debate, is symptomatic of burying ones head in the sand.

[FISHY1118]

[QUOTE]. That TOD estimations were unreliable and could be wildly inaccurate?......... rubbish... my post already prove that 3 doctors were right with there time of death . subject closed move on . admit you were wrong . [QUOTE]

thanks for posting my reply . 3 doctored were right in time of death .


Another, ''times weren't set in stone'' line . No point even trying to discuss

you've totally misinterpreted the question where this was discussed . like i said 3 doctors were right, and you came into the debate to late . moving on.

[packers stem]

All I will say is that although they were limited , comparing the findings of Phillips v Brown is the best we can do , accompanied by digestion and go with that .

Phillips
The body was cold, except that there was a certain remaining heat, under the intestines, in the body.

Brown
The body had been mutilated, and was quite warm - no rigor mortis. The crime must have been committed within half an hour, or certainly within forty minutes from the time when I saw the body.

now , with the best will in the world , it's difficult to imagine how they could be so far apart .....
one still warm, one only having a little internal heat , had they both been killed around 40 -60 minutes prior .Their findings should have been comparable
Both bodies had lost a lot of blood , we're mutilated and left in a cold environment ,probably colder in Eddowes case .

This suggests to me that Chapman was dead long before Cadosch or Long come into the equation , whether before Richardson and 4.45 it's not possible to say .

What we do know though is that the digestion time of potato is very short, one of the quickest foods to digest , typically around an hour .
Chapman was eating the potato at around 1.50

Phillips
The stomach contained a little food.

So to accept a Cadosch time you have to accept Phillips as being wildly inaccurate with an almost totally cold body compared to the warm body of Eddowes .

You have to fight the digestion

and you also have to wonder why she was wandering around with her illnesses for four hours before finding a few pence for a bed .
Nichols was apparently raking it in a week before and spending it all on booze .
Do we think Chapman didn't know the best locations to solicit and that she just wandered ?

[FISHY1118]

Both the ''No'' and the ''Thud'' Cadosch heard are not 100% proof that it was jack the ripper and Annie Chapman between 5.15 and 5.26 .. 50 /50 at best .

[Michael W Richards]

Both the ''No'' and the ''Thud'' Cadosch heard are not 100% proof that it was jack the ripper and Annie Chapman between 5.15 and 5.26 .. 50 /50 at best .

No, they are just proof that at around 5:20 people were right on the spot where the murder victim is found. Annie, if she called "no" out, was alive at that time. Otherwise you have 2 new people there standing over a dead woman...obviously nonsense.

[FISHY1118]

[FISHY1118]

You know your about 100% per cent wrong there . why is it so hard for people to interrupt what cadosch said .Albert Cadosch [Cadoche] It was then about twenty minutes past five, I should think. As I returned towards the back door I heard a voice say "No" just as I was going through the door. It was not in our yard, but I should ''think'' it came from the yard of No. 29. ''i however cannot say on which side it came from''

You realize what that means dont you , so again, if his not sure which side it came from, then we cant just say it was definitely number 29 can we ? so for all we know there might not have been anyone in the 29 hanbury st yard at 5.15 to 5.26 . maybe it was 25 where he heard the ''NO'' . obviously not nonsense.

[Harry D]

Were enquiries made at 25 Hanbury Street to check if any of the residents were out back at that time?

[FISHY1118]

no one made any mention of it at the official inquest ..