Hutchinson and antisemitism ?? A possibility?

[Hunter]

Hi Michael, I just noticed our post crossed. Double barreled this time I guess. LOL

[The Good Michael]

It's okay Hunter. I agree with all your points, though I stay away from Douglas and profiling. Maybe I agree because I have a fondness for Finger, Tennessee.

Mike

[harry]

Ruby,
Would not a person seen going into Kelly's room,and not seen emerging from that room,be thought a better suspect than a person only seen on the street?Not that it matters,if,as I think both may have been the same person,but I was speculating on what might have been the case if Hutchinson had not come forward.Far better to come forward with a story that appears to clear both sightings.Kelly's whereabouts in the hours before midnight,have never been explained.An intense investigation might have proved fruitfull,but,and the police may have been of the same opinion,why waste resources if she was alive and well,and in another persons company at 2AM? A person that is so unlike both.

[Adam Went]

I'll just respond to Hunter's post because it pretty much both covers yours and Michael's.....

The Jews had been implicated in the previous murders. In fact, it was such a hot potato that Warren had the graffiti erased for that very reason.

So what? Anti-semitism was already rife in the East End long before JTR ever started his killings, it was natural that with no better suspect, the locals would start pointing the finger at the Jews. Warren waited 3 hours between the discovery of the graffiti and the order to have it erased, clearly he wasn't too concerned about how many members of the public might become aware of it. A piece of graffiti was hardly going to outrank a double murder in terms of increasing suspicion towards the Jews, was it?

Anyway, the message says that the Jews aren't responsible for whatever it was they were supposed to be responsible was....not that they were.

As for the letters......Michael, you would believe the Goulston Street Graffito was from the killer before you would believe From Hell was? I've got nothing to say to that.....your statement speaks for itself really.

John Douglas, the FBI profiler stated that people's handwriting can be different when writing "chalkboard style" as opposed to the more constrained posture of letter writing. He even figured that the graffito would not give a clue to any of the letter writers because of this- from "The Cases That Haunt Us". The inferred dialect of the two writings are quite similar. Of course there's always the possibility that one isn't connected to the other. We just don't know enough to reach a definite conclusion.

That may be true, but what doesn't change is the spelling and grammar, whether you're writing on a wall or on a piece of paper. There also reaches a point where the acceptable changes simply become irreconcilable. Take a look at how many spelling and grammatical errors there are in the From Hell letter. Then compare it to the GSG which, aside from some errors like capitals where there shouldn't be, and the confusion over the word "Juwes", is spelt entirely correctly. Did Jack miraculously lose his ability to spell in the 2 weeks following the double murder?

Show me the proof that he couldn't read or write. I, for one, do not take the graffiti as "gospel from the killer" but because we really don't know, I wouldn't be so presumptuous to dismiss it outright either.

The odds are stacked firmly in favour of him not being proficient at reading or writing, given the general standard of citizens in 1888. Especially if he was foreign to the country and English wasn't his first language, as many believe. It's down to percentages. And the chances of him being not just able to spell a sentence correctly but also in "good schoolboy hand", is in a minority.

Anyway, the burden of proof is always on the accuser....you are both saying that JTR likely wrote the GSG....and so the onus is on you, not me.

Michael....one final point. As I said before, spray paint didn't exist in 1888. It was also before the days of permanent markers and other such things. Chalk was a common writing instrument in 1888. Now, you go and write a sentence on any wall, anywhere, and within a few days it will be gone, or so worn as to be almost unintelligible. If it rains (as it often did in London), it gets washed off. If it doesn't get washed off, it gets covered over by the constant layer of dirt and grime the working class provide for the walls. So I've got no doubt graffiti was rife in London in 1888, but that the majority of it would have disappeared almost as quickly as it was written. Really, the only thing the GSG has going in its favour is that it must have been reasonably fresh.

Cheers,
Adam.

[The Good Michael]

Adam

I said that the graffiti WASN'T written by the killer. I said that I believe he saw it and it meant something to him, and perhaps because it was so ambiguous. The FROM HELL letter? No way.

Mike

[Hunter]

Hello Adam,

Since we are off topic on this thread I will only say that I don't readily dismiss the graffiti as being written by Kate's murderer because there is circumstantial evidence for it and because we don't really know. There's no burden of proof required here; if there was the whole JTR serial killer thing flies out the window as well - no one was ever caught.

Michael,

So you know about Finger Tennessee? Did you know it is a suburb of the metropolis of Sweet Lips?. Sweet Lips has a grocery store and a cotton gin. Some other interesting communities in my neck of the woods are Skullbone, Frog Jump and Hornbeak.

[The Good Michael]

Hunter,

I met the mayor of Tennessee who was Buford Pusser's uncle. He was a huge man. He took me to meet Buford's daughter and mother in Selma, Alabama and to the place where Buford lost control of his car. I also was forced to go to a square dance. I stayed at the mayor's house. It was kind of weird, but cool at the same time. Everyone talked about Nathan Bedford Forrest. They were utterly racist in that town, but they liked me. I imagine things have changed.

Mike

[Abberline2]

Its worth recalling what was written on that wall:

The Juwes are the men that will not be blamed for nothing

i.e., the Jews will be blamed for something (exactly what is that something is unspecified) and rightly so.

We have absolutely no way of determining how long this graffiti had been there: a few hours ? a day ? a week ? two weeks ? The fact is, no-one knows. When I visited the site, I was told that the graffiti was written inside the doorway and so would have been protected to some extent from weathering. If the words of the graffiti are interpreted solely in the context of the JTR murders then it has obvious significance but ....although so easy and so, so tempting to see this graffiti in so narrow a context, we have to think also of the wider context, too.

During the 1880s Whitechapel came to have a population approaching 250,000 (getting on for a third of the whole of the East End), some 60,000 men, women, and children, were said to exist on or below the poverty line, life expectancy was short, infant mortality running at over 50%, at any given time some 15,000 were classed as homeless. Unemployment was rife. Into this mix came some 50-60,000 Jewish immigrants from Russia, Poland and Germany, few of whom could speak English let alone comprehend the thick local dialect(s). These immigrants could have had little appreciation for and understanding of English working-class morés and culture and, equally, to say the least the poverty-striken English people of East End would have viewed these and all foreign new-comers with deep suspicion. There was a clash of cultures.

It isn't surprising that this situation gave rise to significant and wide-spread anti-semitism. The Jews were blamed for taking Englishmen's jobs, for running sweatshops producing cheap and shoddy goods made by people who worked exceedingly long hours and yet were paid an absolute pittance of a wage. Jews were not only blamed for causing unemployment, they were also held to be the reason for the failure of English workers to attain higher wages and better working conditions, they were accused of strike-breaking by going to work for employers who usual workers were involved in disputes and strikes. Jews were said to be willing to take any job, to "work at any price", as one observer put it. This situation became so serious that two parliamentary committees were set up to investigate the problem caused by immigration into the East End of London. In such circumstances, it would not be at all surprising if Hutchinson was anti-semetic, along with a good many more working-class poor and unemployed of the district. At least women could turn to prostitution to earn the money to pay a doss , an unlikely choice for men at that time. For many, alcohol dulled the pain of destitution and crime might be the only alternative to starvation.

Interpreted in their wider historical context, the words of the GSt graffiti start to take on a different, and from the British government's point of view, a more significant meaning. Within the British government of the 1880s there was genuine fear of socialist-led working-calss revolution. There had been various anti-government protests and riots at that time (that in Trafalgar Square being the best known), real political tension was in the air. Seen in this wider context, the GSt graffiti can readily be interpreted as a comment on the effect Jewish immigration was having in Whitechapel and that, should there be revolution the Jews would be the people to blame for it. Sir Charles Warren, one of the country's governing class, was acutely aware of the political and social melieu in which the Whitechapel murders were taking place and he recognised the potential political threat posed by the discovery of a piece of a murdered woman's apron aside the anti-semetic graffiti. His solution, we all know, was to have the graffiti erased. It was not erased immediately, but after three hours' deliberation.

The JTR case offers a great, intriguing mystery but it must be understood within the conext of the prevailing history of the time. No matter how much one would wish it to be otherwise, its hard to accept that the GSt graffiti had anything at all to do with the JTR case. Its just one more 'red herring' among many that result from the lack of evidence surrounding the JTR murders.

[Adam Went]

Michael:

My apologies, mis-understood your posts. What you suggest is plausible, and certainly a better explanation than Jack himself writing it.

As for the From Hell letter.....IMO, it's by far the most likely, and perhaps only, Ripper communication. The kidney is just too much to ignore.

Abberline2:

While the graffiti might have been somewhat protected from weather such as wind and rain, what it wouldn't have been protected from was the constant filth and grit that was floating through the air of the East End in 1888. It was not a well sanitised area and most of the streets were quite dirty - any exposure to this sort of thing for an extended period of time would have meant that the writing would have become smudged, partially covered over or completely unintelligible within probably a week of it being written, even if it wasn't subject to wind and rain as well. So it's a fairly safe bet that the writing was quite fresh.

Good post and good points, though.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Hunter]

Hunter,

I met the mayor of Tennessee who was Buford Pusser's uncle. He was a huge man. He took me to meet Buford's daughter and mother in Selma, Alabama and to the place where Buford lost control of his car. I also was forced to go to a square dance. I stayed at the mayor's house. It was kind of weird, but cool at the same time. Everyone talked about Nathan Bedford Forrest. They were utterly racist in that town, but they liked me. I imagine things have changed.

Well, it is indeed a small world. Glad you enjoyed yourself, even if it may have seemed strange at the time. Buford Pusser is a bit of a local legend. The honky tonks on the Tennessee- Mississippi line were rough places and he was reputed to have tried to clean them up.

Abberline2,

I agree that to understand these murders, and their proper context, one should understand the people and culture of the times. You seem to have done your homework and should be commended for that. Fine post.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Its worth recalling what was written on that wall:

The Juwes are the men that will not be blamed for nothing

i.e., the Jews will be blamed for something (exactly what is that something is unspecified) and rightly so.

Fair to say the meaning is open to interpretation. I remember reading an interpretation in one of the books that I didn't agree with. I would roughly go with yours - being from a working class background I regularly heard the phrase: "you're not getting wrong for nothing"......meaning....you're being told off because you've done something that deserves a telling off. The only issue I would debate is whether or not the author is concerned with the future......as you suggest.....or the present....which would mean....."the Jews are being blamed because they've done something which deserves blame" - this would be my intrepretation.

Seen in this wider context, the GSt graffiti can readily be interpreted as a comment on the effect Jewish immigration was having in Whitechapel and that, should there be revolution the Jews would be the people to blame for it.

And this is where I would depart. Your idea suggests that the author - let's assume average East Ender (as you say - possibly lacking even an elementary education) - would have a grasp of the wider political picture in London. I doubt that very much. It also assumes that the author had an interest in the wider political picture - I doubt that very much - it is a feature of English politics that we tended to come to the boil over food and jobs. I'd suggest that the author was referring to beatings adminstered to Jews because of an issue over jobs. In other words: the author is concerned with the matter of personal calculation rather than formenting grand ideas such as revolution. And this isn't Germany or France where they had revolutions and coups galore over a 350 year period - this is England where we've had a Constitutional Monarchy throughout that time - the point being that we're less predisposed toward revolution than just about any other country in the world - with only the former colonies having a similar mindset on the importance of stability and the folly of armed revolution.

So the chances are that revolution would be less fashionable for your average Englishman than most other places - and your average East Ender would have little grasp of the wider political picture and care less. Remember - it is the Middle Classes who forment and the Working Classes who follow: Lenin and Trotsky.....and Robespierre who bemoaned the lack of interest for their revolution among the Working Classes and famously stated: "we must force the people to be free".....meaning they weren't capable or had the will to do it for themselves.

[Fleetwood Mac]

We can't predict the way JTR's mind worked, but we can predict the way George Hutchinson's mind worked.

Observer

Which is what I said at the outset and which renders Hutchinson less likely than Blotchy based on the known evidence. Blotchy was in the room. It seems that you're coming round to my way of thinking.

And if you accept that:

a) We can't predict the thoughts of the killer (which means you can't predict he was lying and in the event he was the reasons for lying).

b) All we are left with is the known evidence.

Which means you should be renouncing Hutchinson's killer status round about now. Assuming you mean what you say.

So - who do you believe the killer was and why again?

[Septic Blue]

During the 1880s Whitechapel came to have a population approaching 250,000 (getting on for a third of the whole of the East End), some 60,000 men, women, and children, were said to exist on or below the poverty line, life expectancy was short, infant mortality running at over 50%, at any given time some 15,000 were classed as homeless. Unemployment was rife. Into this mix came some 50-60,000 Jewish immigrants from Russia, Poland and Germany, ...

I believe you may have obtained this 'intelligence' from one of the many sensationalist bullshit merchants (e.g. Richard Jones, Donald Rumbelow, et al) who regularly tout this sort of garbage.

"During the 1880s Whitechapel came to have a population approaching 250,000 ..."


Whitechapel Registration District / Poor Law Union - 1888 (Click to Enlarge in flickr)
Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2010

In accordance with the Census of England & Wales, 1891 ...

Whitechapel Registration District / Poor Law Union:
- The Liberty of Norton Folgate (Green): 1,449
- The Old Artillery Ground (Aqua): 2,138
- The Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields (Blue): 22,859
- The Hamlet of Mile End New Town (Orange): 11,303
- The Parish of Holy Trinity ('Minories') (Yellow): 301
- The Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel (Red): 32,326
----- {Portion within the County of Middlesex, -1889; the County of London, 1889-1900: 32,284}
----- {Portion within the City of London, -1900: 42}
- The Liberty of Her Majesty's Tower of London (Orange): 933
----- {The Liberty of the Tower: n/a}
----- {The Precinct of Old Tower Without: 65}
----- {The Tower: 868}
- The Precinct of St. Katharine (Blue): 182
- The Parish of St. Botolph without Aldgate (portion within the County of Middlesex, -1889; the County of London, 1889-1965) (Green): 2,971

- Total Population (1891 Census): 74,462

If we assume that the non color-shaded portion of the above image, which lay south of Whitechapel Road / Mile End Road, and north of St. George Street (i.e. 'Ratcliff Highway'), was generally and colloquially referred to as 'Whitechapel', in the 1880's/1890's, ...

- The Ecclesiastical Parish of St. Augustine ('Stepney'), Civil Parish / Hamlet of Mile End Old Town: 7,277
- The Ecclesiastical Parish of St. Philip ('Stepney'), Civil Parish / Hamlet of Mile End Old Town: 8,135
- The Ecclesiastical Parish of St. John the Evangelist, Civil Parish of St. George in the East: 12,950
- The Ecclesiastical Parish of Christ Church, Civil Parish of St. George in the East: 8,615
- The Combined Ecclesiastical Parish of St. George in the East with St. Matthew, Civil Parish of St. George in the East: 10,551

- Sub-Total Population (1891 Census): 47,528

... and including the entireties of these parochial entities is a bit of a 'stretch', ...

... we have a Grand Total of 121,990 persons residing in all places 'Whitechapel', in accordance with the 1891 Census of England & Wales.

And again; this is a bit of a 'stretch', to say the least.

---

"... some 60,000 men, women, and children, were said to exist on or below the poverty line, ..."

I will expound on the issue of 'poverty', later tonight, or sometime tomorrow. But, for now ...

Charles Booth's delineations of socio-economic classification …

"In Poverty":

Class 'A': "Vicious" (i.e. vice-ridden); "Semi-Criminal"
Class 'B': "Very Poor"
Class 'C': "Poor" - Irregular Income
Class 'D': "Poor" - Regular but Inadequate Income

"In Comfort":

Class 'E': "Above the 'Line of Poverty'" - Regular "Standard" Income
Class 'F': "Highly Skilled Labour"
Class 'G': "Lower Middle-Class"
Class 'H': "Upper Middle-Class"

Whitechapel Registration District / Poor Law Union:
- The Liberty of Norton Folgate
- The Old Artillery Ground
- The Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields
- The Hamlet of Mile End New Town
- The Parish of Holy Trinity ('Minories')
- The Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel (portion within the County of Middlesex, -1889; the County of London, 1889-1965)
- The Liberty of Her Majesty's Tower of London
--- {The Liberty of the Tower}
--- {The Precinct of Old Tower Without}
--- {The Tower}
- The Precinct of St. Katharine
- The Parish of St. Botolph without Aldgate (portion within the County of Middlesex, -1889; the County of London, 1889-1965)

- Total Population (Charles Booth 1889 Estimate): 73,518

Class 'A': 2,426 (3.30%)
Class 'B': 6,543 (8.90%)
Classes 'C' & 'D': 19,850 (27.00%)

Sub-Total (Below the 'Line of Poverty'): 28,819 (39.20%)

Classes 'E' & 'F': 40,729 (55.40%)
Classes 'G' & 'H': 3,970 (5.40%)

Sub-Total (Above the 'Line of Poverty'): 44,699 (60.80%)

Mile End Old Town Registration District / Poor Law Parish:
- The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town

- Total Population (Charles Booth 1889 Estimate): 110,321

Class 'A': 772 (0.70%)
Class 'B': 7,502 (6.80%)
Classes 'C' & 'D': 20,520 (18.60%)

Sub-Total (Below the 'Line of Poverty'): 28,794 (26.10%)

Classes 'E' & 'F': 73,805 (66.90%)
Classes 'G' & 'H': 7,722 (7.00%)

Sub-Total (Above the 'Line of Poverty'): 81,527 (73.90%)

St. George in the East Registration District / Poor Law Parish:
- The Parish of St. George in the East

- Total Population (Charles Booth 1889 Estimate): 47,578

Class 'A': 714 (1.50%)
Class 'B': 7,184 (15.10%)
Classes 'C' & 'D': 15,368 (32.30%)

Sub-Total (Below the 'Line of Poverty'): 23,266 (48.90%)

Classes 'E' & 'F': 23,170 (48.70%)
Classes 'G' & 'H': 1,142 (2.40%)

Sub-Total (Above the 'Line of Poverty'): 24,312 (51.10%)

Please note that here, I have referred to the entireties of the 'Mile End Old Town' & 'St. George in the East' Registration Districts; as opposed to the relatively smaller portions of these constituencies, that might have generally and colloquially been referred to as 'Whitechapel', in the 1880's/1890's, as mentioned above.

---

"Into this mix came some 50-60,000 Jewish immigrants from Russia, Poland and Germany, ..."

In accordance with the Census of England & Wales, 1891 ...

Whitechapel Registration District / Poor Law Union:
- The Liberty of Norton Folgate
- The Old Artillery Ground
- The Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields
- The Hamlet of Mile End New Town
- The Parish of Holy Trinity ('Minories')
- The Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel (portion within the County of Middlesex, -1889; the County of London, 1889-1965)
- The Liberty of Her Majesty's Tower of London
--- {The Liberty of the Tower}
--- {The Precinct of Old Tower Without}
--- {The Tower}
- The Precinct of St. Katharine
- The Parish of St. Botolph without Aldgate (portion within the County of Middlesex, -1889; the County of London, 1889-1965)

- Total Population (1891 Census): 74,462

Enumerated Immigrants From ...
- Russia: 6,367
- Poland: 7,171
- Germany: 1,651

- Sub-Total: 15,189

Mile End Old Town Registration District / Poor Law Parish:
- The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town

- Total Population (1891 Census): 107,592

Enumerated Immigrants From ...
- Russia: 1,288
- Poland: 2,152
- Germany: 1,125

- Sub-Total: 4,565

St. George in the East Registration District / Poor Law Parish:
- The Parish of St. George in the East

- Total Population (1891 Census): 45,795

Enumerated Immigrants From ...
- Russia: 1,924
- Poland: 3,049
- Germany: 1,423

- Sub-Total: 6,396

- Total: 26,150

Please note that here again, I have referred to the entireties of the 'Mile End Old Town' & 'St. George in the East' Registration Districts; as opposed to the relatively smaller portions of these constituencies, that might have generally and colloquially been referred to as 'Whitechapel', in the 1880's/1890's, as mentioned above. But, to be fair; it was indeed the case that most Eastern European immigrants residing in these two parochial entities, in the 1880's/1890's, lived in the colloquially-speaking 'Greater Whitechapel' portions.

I will make further additions/clarifications later tonight or sometime tomorrow.

The issue of 'homelessness' will be difficult to tackle. As for infant mortality; I've heard that 50%(+) figure once too often, and I plainly and simply do not believe it!

50%(+) infant mortality in Old Nichol Street, Parish of St. Matthew Bethnal Green, ... perhaps! But, in some broader vicinity, such as 'Whitechapel'? No Way!

Again; more to follow!

[Observer]

Which is what I said at the outset and which renders Hutchinson less likely than Blotchy based on the known evidence. Blotchy was in the room. It seems that you're coming round to my way of thinking.

And if you accept that:

a) We can't predict the thoughts of the killer (which means you can't predict he was lying and in the event he was the reasons for lying).

b) All we are left with is the known evidence.

Which means you should be renouncing Hutchinson's killer status round about now. Assuming you mean what you say.

So - who do you believe the killer was and why again?

Eh??????? If I came round to your way of thinking then I'd be worired. You don't seem to have interpreted my last post very well. It was posted to demonstrate how your posts contradict themselves. On the one hand you're saying that we can't predict how JTR's mind worked, but it's perfectly feasible to predict how Hutchinsons mind worked for you posted the following

Surely Hutchinson coming forward suggests it wasn't him.

If he did it.....then he'd be thinking: "go to the police and if someone saw me going into the room then I'm well and truly goosed".

If he didn't do it....then he'd be thinking: "go to the police and there ain't a problem because I didn't go in the room - I didn't kill her - so there's no way I can get fingered for this".

The evidence doesn't point to H....nor does logic.

You can't have it both ways.

I don't believe we can have an iota of insight into the mind of JTR, or how it worked. Nor can we predict what Hutchinson's train of thought was the three days leading up to his arrival at Commercial Street poilce station 12th November 1888. Only he can provide us with the answer as to why he came forward, and no amount of theorising on your part will provide us with the real truth.

Observer

[Fleetwood Mac]

Eh??????? If I came round to your way of thinking then I'd be worired. You don't seem to have interpreted my last post very well. It was posted to demonstrate how your posts contradict themselves. On the one hand you're saying that we can't predict how JTR's mind worked, but it's perfectly feasible to predict how Hutchinsons mind worked for you posted the following

Observer

I've stated once....I'm happy to put forward plausible alternatives.....doesn't mean I'm saying they happened. That is part of the discussion. I don't have a suspect I've claimed for my own. I'll go with Blotchy simply because he was in the room. Hopefully - this will be clear and end that conversation.

Now you are saying that you can't predict the mind of JTR - I agree - no argument there.

Now I think I remember you stating that you don't believe MJK was a JTR murder.

So......can you state in uncomplicated terms who you point to for the killing of MJK and why? And I'm assuming you'll apply the same: "can't predict the thoughts of x" logic.

I have a feeling you'll dance round this for obvious reasons....but prove me wrong and state who you feel is the killer (the person you've stated in the past) and just clarify that it's not because you're predicting the thoughts of the killer.