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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > General Suspect Discussion

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  #501  
Old 11-06-2018, 01:40 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
surly if he was jewish it would have been noted, especially given the circs.
"circs" = circumcision?

Just kidding
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  #502  
Old 11-07-2018, 01:58 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
His birthplace is on record, but not his ethnicity. The name Jacob Isenschmid is very likely from Jewish origins however, and I get pork from my Jewish butcher all the time. Processing and ingesting are not the same thing. And the Bible isn't strictly a Christian reference book.
Isenschmidt was Church of England, Michael !!
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  #503  
Old 11-07-2018, 03:42 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is online now
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Originally Posted by Jon Guy View Post
Isenschmidt was Church of England, Michael !!
I found that he was Swiss in nationality, born in Bern I believe, that he was an avid reader of the bible and believed himself someone who did not follow its principles, that his daughter later changes her name to a Christian format, and that the local authorities referred to him in a way that lumped him in with the "other" Jew butchers in the neighborhood. I believe its possible that he, not Piser, was Leather Apron. But Ive never read anywhere that explicitly cites his ethnicity Jon.

The name certainly does suggest a Hebraic history, from Swiss and perhaps German co-mingling.

Im happy to concede the point if I have missed the source that states it empirically, and frankly Im not focused on that aspect in Annies case anyway. I believe, despite the pronunciation by Anderson that they determined the culprit was a Jew in September, that the night of the Double Event is the only Canonical where ethnicity might be factored in.

I also think that due to the strong sentiments towards Jews at that time some families might have behaved differently to avoid the persecution.
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  #504  
Old 11-07-2018, 04:10 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
Im happy to concede the point if I have missed the source that states it empirically,
It`s here in Chris Scott`s sterling research:
https://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=4514

Registered No. of Admission: 10,191
Date of Admission: 24th September 1887 (Seen 7 Oct 1887)
Name: Jacob Isenschmid
Age: 43
Parish: Islington

Single, Married, or Widowed: Married
Condition and previous occupation: Pork butcher
Religious Persuasion: Church of England
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  #505  
Old 11-07-2018, 04:38 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
The name certainly does suggest a Hebraic history, from Swiss and perhaps German co-mingling.
There are many Jews named Isenschmidt, or equivalent, in the Yad Vashem database of Holocaust victims. I just did a search and, whilst there were no results for Isenschmidt, a search on "Eisenschmidt" (which makes more sense from a Germanic perspective) returned 190 matches. Some are exact, but most are equivalents (e.g. Ajzenszmid, Hizenszmidt) that clearly derive from a similar root name, and all of which could be rendered as "Isenschmidt", or close variants thereof, in English.

The overwhelming majority of these people were from Poland, mainly Łódź (natives, not deportees to the Łódź Ghetto), with three Russians from Leningrad and one resident of Berlin (although she was Polish born).
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  #506  
Old 11-07-2018, 05:34 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Guy View Post
It`s here in Chris Scott`s sterling research:
https://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=4514

Registered No. of Admission: 10,191
Date of Admission: 24th September 1887 (Seen 7 Oct 1887)
Name: Jacob Isenschmid
Age: 43
Parish: Islington

Single, Married, or Widowed: Married
Condition and previous occupation: Pork butcher
Religious Persuasion: Church of England

Thanks for posting that Jon, I do recall seeing that when Lynn and I used to message each other about some Isenschmidt issues. I find that wording interesting though...why would it not be practicing Christian, or Jew, or Muslim, or Agnostic, or Presbyterian? And how would someone prove that they particpated in any religious gatherings I wonder. Would some Jewish immigrants seek to protect themselves from persecution by attending church services and adopting Christian behaviors and habits? Anglicizing themselves a bit to feel safer? Perhaps.
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  #507  
Old 11-07-2018, 05:42 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
Would some Jewish immigrants seek to protect themselves from persecution by attending church services and adopting Christian behaviors and habits?
Converting to Christianity was fairly commonplace among European Jews throughout the 19th Century. Seen in this light, it's even possible that Isenschmidt had been a Christian from birth.
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  #508  
Old 11-07-2018, 05:55 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
The name Jacob Isenschmid is very likely from Jewish origins.
Apparently so: https://www.houseofnames.com/eisenschmidt-family-crest

I note that there is a town called Eisenschmitt in the Rhineland, but my money's on the name being patronymic rather than toponymic.
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  #509  
Old 11-07-2018, 04:56 PM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is online now
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Apparently so: https://www.houseofnames.com/eisenschmidt-family-crest

I note that there is a town called Eisenschmitt in the Rhineland, but my money's on the name being patronymic rather than toponymic.
I like the metonymic occupational take myself Sam. As I suggested earlier I think the German influence might be present, and someone who makes knifes and blades to a later generation person who uses knives and blades in their occupation sort of fits here.. maybe.
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  #510  
Old 11-08-2018, 12:18 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael W Richards
I think the German influence might be present, and someone who makes knifes and blades to a later generation person who uses knives and blades in their occupation sort of fits here.. maybe.
I've sometimes mused that the German words for knife and butcher, Messer and Metzger, might long ago have shared a common ancestor, but that's apparently not the case.
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