Lizzie Borden took an axe--or did she?

[Albert]

Hi Brenda,
This book is available in the UK on Amazon as a Kindle book £2.59.
Well worth the money and an excellent book by someone who lived in the same area.
Cheers
Alabert

[sdreid]

To RavenDarkendale:

I highly recommend a book if you can find it, it's fairly rare. It's called "A Private Disgrace: Lizzie Borden by Daylight" by Victoria Lincoln, copyright 1967. I believe this is one of the best books on the subject and all sources used are contemporary. It was recommended to me by a "Lizzieologist"....I just made that word up.

I have seen that book at one of our local libraries but I haven't read it. Isn't that the one that blames the murders on Lizzie's supposed secret affliction of some sort of psychotic epilepsy? To me, the murders seemed a little too well planned for that type thing but who knows.

[Brenda]

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It is hinted in the book that some sort of psychosis was at work.

I have a real problem with some of Lizzie's behavior before and after the murders. That doesn't prove she committed the murders, of course, but something about Lizzie was just very "off", I do believe there was some kind of psychological something going on with her, and after reading the book, I do feel that she is most likely the guilty party.

Plus the book offers an awesome explanation of how the bloody dress could have eluded police detection before ending up in the stove.

[robhouse]

Read this, and you should be pretty well convinced that she is guilty:

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/LizzieBorden/bordeninquest.html

[Brenda]

.

Oh this is awesome, I didn't know this was online!

If you notice all the testimony about this locked door and that locked door....Mrs. Borden wanted the doors locked between her room and Lizzie's room. There had been an incident, I think Lizzie may have been caught stealing, but the Borden family kept it quiet. I really need to read this case again!

Thanks so much for posting this link to the inquest testimony.

[Brenda]

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Goodness, she is tripping all over herself while she's testifying.

[RavenDarkendale]

Let’s see here…

Brenda: Thanks for the suggestion. I have one ordered, $0.54 plus $3.95 shipping. It will be in soon.

Robhouse: Her testimony was disjointed, confused, and outright lies from time to time. Is this an indication of guilt? Maybe. Maybe not. She was being questioned by the prosecutor and judge without having been charged with anything. She was never charged until the incident of the dress burning. So the defense managed to get the entire testimony disallowed, including testimony concerning her attempted purchase of Prussic Acid. Definite Prosecutors’ mistake. This is one reason for Miranda rights at arrest.

And Jonathan H:

Sir, I disallow your privilege of ascertaining my mindset. If I state the negative, then negative is my intent. Dissuade yourself from transposing my statements.

She was indeed found “not guilty” which is not the same as “innocent”. In 1995 a group of law students retried the case before Supreme Court Justices Reinhardt and O’Conner . The verdict was again “not guilty”.

Regarding Oswald…

The Warren Commission went into the investigation with guilt presupposed. Certainly Oswald was incapable of refuting anything, being long dead.

There was evidence that was never (or at least never acknowledged) that might have given a clearer picture. The Babushka Lady was directly beside the vehicle at the time of the shooting. She appeared to be taking pictures, and would have had the very best vantage point. She wandered off, and has never reportedly been identified. Those pictures would be priceless.

Do I think Oswald was railroaded? Who knows? IMHO, the President’s head explodes from two shots. The shots come from opposite directions. But the experts have said, no. And I, sir, am not an expert!

God bless

Darkendale

[Brenda]

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Lizzie hated her stepmother Abbey. She was suspected to be the culprit in some stolen items from her parents' bedroom, thus she was "locked out" of being able to go into their room, for several years right up to the day of the murders. There was some reason her parents would be compelled to do that, I think they were always a bit afraid of her. There were family arguments. The Borden household was a pressure cooker of negativity.

But anyway, I can't wait for you to get your book, Ravendarkendale. I have started re-reading mine, as it's been several years and I forget stuff easily. Let's plan on discussing it for sure! I think you will be at least impressed by the case Ms. Lincoln presents for Lizzie's guilt, even if you end up believing she is innocent. The fact that Ms. Lincoln lived in the town, and knew all the "town gossip" and all the key players, makes for some exciting reading.

Whatever you do, make sure you look at the layout map of the house often. It's impossible to understand the case without knowing how that house was designed. And what a strange design it was! A house with no hallways.

[Livia]

For me, the most plausible explanation is in this book:

Lizzie Borden: The Legend, the Truth, the Final Chapter

by Arnold R Brown

It's still available on Amazon, relatively cheap.

I don't want to give too much away, but neither
Lizzie, Emma or Bridget are suspects in this book.

Here's a hint:

If you're reading the inquest, there are a series of questions
asked of Lizzie by the prosecutor:

Q. How many children has your father?
A. Only two.
Q. Only you two?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Any others ever?
A. One that died.

This is key to Brown's theory.

[Mayerling]

I'm pretty certain that Lizzie did it, but I have toyed with the theory that she may have killed her step-mother, went about her daily chores, and that Bridget may have killed Mr. Borden (due to some friction between them). This would cause the authorities investigating the double killing to find contradictory evidence going in different directions.

I believe I know the theory that is in the newer book. I will not mention it so that the others on this thread can discover it for themselves. Knowing what a skinflint Andrew Jackson Borden was, I can believe it. But it comes from left field.

The prosecutor of Lizzie was William Moody, who would subsequently be in President Theodore Roosevelt's cabinet and then be named to the U.S. Supreme Court. Lizzie actually sent him a note congradulating him on the appointment to the Court.

Jeff

[Cogidubnus]

Hello Jeff

Like you I've still got books I bought way back and still haven't read (not many I grant you but some) - Among them alas is the Victoria Lincoln work which I've been shamed (by this thread) into starting...and now you rotten buggers have me totally intrigued by this Arnold Brown book...really and truly and honestly worth buying or just a novelty?

All the best

Dave

[Mayerling]

Hi Dave,

Honestly, even the worst crime books I have read (Spiering's "Prince Jack" comes to mind) should be read for two reasons: 1) they show what to avoid to fall into when writing on the subject; 2) they might be of some value (Spiering had a nice bibliography in "Prince Jack"). I don't quite buy the solution in Brown's book, but it is certainly worth a look. I'd stick closer to Victoria Lincoln's book (probably still the best one on Lizzie).

Jeff

[Ally]

Having stayed in the murder room and had my hubs re-enact several scenarios involving coming up the stairs, there's no way, in my opinion that the killer wasn't well known to Abby and supposed to be in the house. There's no defensive wounds on her and there's no way to sneak up on her from the room, which pretty much lets out any stranger entering scenario.

As for the cleaning up, I don't have a problem with it, as I imagine it went something like this: Lizzie kills Abby and is a bit of a mess, she has about an hour and a half to clean herself up and hide whatever dress she'd been wearing. Her father comes home, hangs his coat on the hook and she takes the coat, covers herself with it (familiar with the mess at this point) kills him and then crumples up the coat and puts it on the back of the couch to explain the blood on it. Her clothes needn't have had a drop of blood on them. Then it's a simple matter to wash her hands and clean up is complete.

[Stewart P Evans]

She certainly did...

She certainly did 'take an axe', and she certainly did murder her parents. Mystery, what mystery? Oh, the mystery as to why she wasn't found guilty.

[RavenDarkendale]

She certainly did 'take an axe', and she certainly did murder her parents. Mystery, what mystery? Oh, the mystery as to why she wasn't found guilty.

Now that is one thing that isn't a mystery. The defense managed to get her rambling testimony and suspicious poison buying totally disallowed. There was no bloody dress, the prosecution produced a dress that had nothing to do with the crime for some reason.

The hatchet head produced at the trial was largely disqualified as evidence by testimony from policemen that when it was found in the box the broken handle was with it. The prosecution claimed Lizzie burned it. She didn't have the chance.

The burned dress was highly suspicious, especially why she chose then to burn it, but the eyewitnesses said it did have paint on it, not blood, and it seemed that the Bordens were in the habit of burning discarded clothing that couldn't be recycled. (Andrew was an awful miser, so I suppose he thought burning cloth helped heat the place, who knows!)

In my opinion, the evidence was circumstantial at best and then the prosecution managed to sink itself by not knowing exactly what their witnesses were going to say. I cannot see a good prosecutor, and both Knowlton and Moody were obviously highly qualified, putting a witness on the stand that they knew would sabotage part of the evidence. Hon.
Hosea M. Knowlton later served in the Massachusetts State Senate and House of Representatives. William Moody served as U.S. attorney general from 1904 to 1906. From 1906 to 1910 he was an associate justice of the Supreme Court of the United States.

Then the Judge's instructions to the jury were singularly in favor of the accused.

It is all in the trail Transcripts, which you can view in their entirety here: http://lizzieandrewborden.com/CrimeL...Transcript.htm also floor plans for this weird house without halls. The guest room and Lizzie's room were accessible from the front stairs landing, but going into Emma's room required a trip through Lizzie's. There was a door into the parent's room from Lizzie's but Mr Borden blocked it. The other door was on the back stairs landing, and Borden kept that one locked.

If Lizzie didn't do it, she certainly had to know who did. There are few secrets in a house without halls!

God Bless

Darkendale