Lizzie Borden took an axe--or did she?

[crberger]

RavenDarkendale:

T
I also found it interesting that in this book on Lizzie, he conveniently gets most of his information from a book, The Fall River Tragedy, Edwin H Porter, 1893, and then proceeds to inform us that only four copies are know to exist.

He then says that the one in the Library of Congress is missing, one is in the State House in Boston, one is owned by the Fall River Historical Society, and he has the last one personally.

Maybe. They sell reprints. I have one ordered from alibris.com that cost $13.92 postpaid. It will be interesting to see if his reports are accurate, since he believed he had a unique advantage!

How does it read compared compared to the modern version?

[Cogidubnus]

Read it at last

The Lincoln book is pretty damn good but does seem to be prejudiced against Borden right from the start...perhaps a result of the atmosphere in which she grew up...Having said that, it's very difficult to conclude it was anyone other than Lizzie or the maid, either, by necessity, with the full knowledge of the other...

All the best

Dave

[robhouse]

I think it is pretty clear that Lizzie did it, alone. Again, read her inquest testimony... this pretty much nails it in my opinion. Why else does she lie over and over again. She is not acting like an innocent person would act.

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/LizzieBorden/bordeninquest.html

Lizzie Borden. OJ. Casey Anthony. All the same... incredible that juries can be so daft.

RH

[Beowulf]

I think it is pretty clear that Lizzie did it, alone. Again, read her inquest testimony... this pretty much nails it in my opinion. Why else does she lie over and over again. She is not acting like an innocent person would act.

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/LizzieBorden/bordeninquest.html

Lizzie Borden. OJ. Casey Anthony. All the same... incredible that juries can be so daft.

RH

Rob, thank you for that link. It is very interesting to read that information right there altogether without having to search it out in a book.

When I read Fall River Tragedy her answers to the police were obviously false.

It was a very hot sweltering August 4th. She was alone in the house as Bridget the maid claimed she was in the back yard talking to the neighbor's maid over the fence.

Lizzie's statement she was in the barn eating pears and looking for sinkers makes no sense as there were no footprints in the dust in the barn and if it was such a hot day why would she go into a hot dusty barn and stand around eating pears?

That right there did it for me. There are other reasons, the will altered in favor of her mother, her sister I believe stopped associating with her after this altogether, her recorded dislike of her parents...

[RivkahChaya]

No autopsy comparable to what would be done today was done on the bodies. For all we know, their throats were cut before they were cut with the hatchet. Or, more likely, they were bludgeoned into unconsciousness with the blunt edge, and not moving when they were struck death blows with the sharp edge. The murders may just not have been as bloody as people assume. And people didn't really know about blood evidence on clothes. I don't recall reading that the clothes Lizzie wore at the time the bodies were found were taken by the police and examined. The idea that she "didn't have any blood on her" would have referred to a cursory visual exam.

And, the courts were faced with a real problem of what to do with her if she were convicted. With no facilities for a woman given a life sentence, and a court very reluctant to hang a woman, there was the possibility she would have received a commutation on the grounds of "We don't know what else to do." Even with commutations often being sui generis, it still wasn't a precedent the court wanted to set, hence the judge's instructions.

It doesn't really compare to OJ Simpson, or Casey Anthony. In the Simpson case, the defense smeared the reputation of a key witness, and forced him to plead the fifth, invalidating all his testimony relating to the case. In the Anthony case, the prosecutor overreached in charging her. There really wasn't evidence for a first degree murder charge. You can't use post-event behavior to imply motive. That is circular reasoning. There was no evidence of motive prior to the event, and the "Google search" evidence fell apart on examination. The prosecutor should have let her plead to second degree murder, or manslaughter.

[RavenDarkendale]

I just bought and read two more Lizzie Bordon "theories" and it is amazing how far people will stretch the matter for their view of the case.

Arnold R Brown's Lizzie Borden: The Legend, The Truth, The Final Chapter attempts to place the blame on William S Bordon, supposed illegitimate son of Andrew Bordon.

William Masterson's Lizzie Didn't Do It places the blame on an intruder, and names three young men Jonathan Clegg, prospective tenant of Andrew Bordon who wished to rent a store; Joe Carpenter, who embezzled money from a bank where Andrew sat on the board; and Henry Palmer, another disgruntled employee who embezzled money.

To get these theories across, Masterson challenges the time of death, having both Abby and Andrew murdered in a 15 minute interval while Lizzie was outside, with Abby dying last.

Whoo-boy!

[YankeeSergeant]

Did she or didn't she?

Officially, the case is unsolved. Having said that Lizzie bears a closer look, but there are questions that crop up. John Vinnicum Morse had been at the house the evening before. What did he have to say about the family dynamic? And by the way, where was he during the murder?
Did Bridget kill the Bordens and Lizzie help her cover it up or vice-versa. While the Bordens were supposedly good to their staff, they never remembered Bridget's name always calling her Maggie, the name of a previous employee who left for a better engaement, and they had her out washing windows when she was obviously ilol. Was she really ill or was she malingering. I don't know that I would credit Lizzie with being as well organized about the killings. As to the food, I was given to understand that the family had been eating the same post of stew for a week. Dicey proposition in the days before refrigeration. Again, I'm asking because I'm not as well read as many of you on the killings but curious, Neil

[YankeeSergeant]

Thanks!

I think it is pretty clear that Lizzie did it, alone. Again, read her inquest testimony... this pretty much nails it in my opinion. Why else does she lie over and over again. She is not acting like an innocent person would act.

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/LizzieBorden/bordeninquest.html

Lizzie Borden. OJ. Casey Anthony. All the same... incredible that juries can be so daft.

RH

Rob, thanks for posting the transcripts! I have some reading between my current writing project. Thanks again,

[robhouse]

This is a case for Occam's razor. Lizzie acted suspicious prior to the murder. She acted suspicious after the murder. She had motive. She resented her parents. Her story is implausible. She burned her dress. etc etc.

She is guilty. I have no doubt at all.

You can find unusual or suspicious aspects of any crime if you look hard enough, but this one is about as cut and dried as they come.

RH

[Tom_Wescott]

Lizzie and OJ

There's no question that Lizzie did it. But I too have wondered about 'Uncle John' in all this. He had a great alibi for the murder - and went out of his way to make sure he had one. Compare his actions to the very guilty Wallace and you'll see what I mean. He goes on a tram and makes sure a number of people notice him. He visits doctors at their homes, policemen, etc. I've had a chance to read some papers that are not widely available yet (in no Borden book) and it turns out that Uncle John made some conflicting statements as to who first told him about the murders. Could this be due to shock at hearing the news or something else? Not sure.

As for OJ Simpson, I too felt it was a no-brainer he was guilty, but the more recent evidence makes me seriously doubt it. And for 18 years I thought it would take a miracle to make me doubt OJ's guilt. But he might actually not be guilty. Looks like his son may have done it.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Arnold R Brown's Lizzie Borden: The Legend, The Truth, The Final Chapter attempts to place the blame on William S Bordon, supposed illegitimate son of Andrew Bordon.

This book is a fun read, but it's the Borden equivalent of the royal conspiracy theory. In other words, a great fiction.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Ally]

As for OJ Simpson, I too felt it was a no-brainer he was guilty, but the more recent evidence makes me seriously doubt it. And for 18 years I thought it would take a miracle to make me doubt OJ's guilt. But he might actually not be guilty. Looks like his son may have done it.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom, glad you are feeling better, I had heard you were very ill. Regarding this (and I'll keep it brief so as not to derail the thread) did you read that book that came out a while ago on this theory and is that what convinced you? By the P.I, can't remember his name? I was thinking to get it one of these days. If you have read it, just a quick review on whether it's worth it or not.

[Tom_Wescott]

It's called 'OJ IS INNOCENT AND I CAN PROVE IT' and it's definitely a good read. The PI who wrote it is no Shakespeare, but he's no Marriott either. If you have a high standard of 'proof' as I do, then you might feel the book falls a little short of the title, but you will come away going 'Wow, OJ might actually be innocent', because there are so many strong pieces of circumstancial evidence that a) point away from OJ as the killer, and b) Point towards his son. If the book is correct, and it might damn well be, then all I can say is 'Poor Nicole, poor Ron...and poor OJ.'

Along with Foreign Faction, the book that puts the final nail in the Jonbenet coffin, I'd rank this book up with probably the top three true crime books of the last couple years. The other being 'Skyjacker' about D.B. Cooper.


Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Vincenzo]

Hey guys I had the pleasure of visiting Mr. Andrew Borden's house which is now a B&B/Museum. I didn't stay the night, but I did take the tour and took some photos. I'll post them here in a minute. It was fascinating to be there. I have always been interested in Lizzie and her story so one this trip to Massachusetts this week I was determined to make it to Fall River. It did not disappoint.

[Vincenzo]

I think it is pretty clear that Lizzie did it, alone. Again, read her inquest testimony... this pretty much nails it in my opinion. Why else does she lie over and over again. She is not acting like an innocent person would act.

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/LizzieBorden/bordeninquest.html

Lizzie Borden. OJ. Casey Anthony. All the same... incredible that juries can be so daft.

RH

Wasn't she prescribed morphine after the murders and still taking it up through then inquest? That could explain why she was all over the place in her testimony.