Sutcliffe launches legal challenge against 'die in jail' ruling.

[Zodiac]

Hi Zodiac

In my book, posters only need to worry about causing offence if they've done so by rudeness, bad language etc. If someone is offended because they don't like someone else's opinion, they'll just have to get on with it.

Those like you and Nats who feel able and willing to speak out are to be admired.

Hi Robert,

Thanks for that mate. Speaking out, even on an internet forum and not under your real name, still makes you feel kind of vunerable. So thanks again for your support, it is deeply appreciated.

Best wishes,

Zodiac.

[Natalie Severn]

I want to thank you for your bravery in helping to explain to people just how the whole debate over the rights, dignity and humane treatment of the serial murderer, rapist, paedophile etc. can seem both hurtful and offensive, when you are one of those whose world has been violated by them

Thankyou Zodiac for your words -which are very important to me and much appreciated.

What you said about flashbacks and sleep disorders really strikes a chord with me, in my nightmares I am always the same powerless child I was back then. I've certainly "punished" him in my imagination like you say, oh boy, I have done things to him that would make Ghenghis Khan cross over the road to avoid me!!! '

Well I am glad you have said it ----because that is exactly how I felt too---still do feel sometimes when ,on much rarer occasions thankfully now ,I have to deal with it.And I don"t have any guilt about it and have no intention of ever forgiving him for what he did to me as a powerless child.
But with regard to punishment by the state ,let us have clear laws and clear consequences for breaking those laws . As I said ,as far as I am concerned I remain convinced that society can best deal with its law breakers ,through prison, rather than execution .
Thanks too to all our friends here whose supportive words and sympathy is important to us.
Norma

[Robert]

Nats and Zodiac

Hope this helps just a little bit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBMCxD5Q2O8

[Zodiac]

Thankyou Zodiac for your words -which are very important to me and much appreciated.



Well I am glad you have said it ----because that is exactly how I felt too---still do feel sometimes when ,on much rarer occasions thankfully now ,I have to deal with it.And I don"t have any guilt about it and have no intention of ever forgiving him for what he did to me as a powerless child.
But with regard to punishment by the state ,let us have clear laws and clear consequences for breaking those laws . As I said ,as far as I am concerned I remain convinced that society can best deal with its law breakers ,through prison, rather than execution .
Thanks too to all our friends here whose supportive words and sympathy is important to us.
Norma

Hi Norma,

Thank you, and before I get too all emotional to type, I just want to second what you say in the above post. Me too, I totally agree. Thanks again.

Best wishes,

Zodiac.

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks, and yes Robert-it did!-and George was my favourite Beatle of all by a long way!Funny though---I am still afraid of the dark to this day!

[Robert]

Well, here's the rest of the therapy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBMCxD5Q2O8

[Robert]

Ha! This is it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0igRKYQUfpg

[protohistorian]

Well done Robert, that is too funny! Dave

[Zodiac]

LOL!!!

Thanks Robert,

I love Dud and Pete.

This one always, "gave me fits" as someone used to say!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UT02--Ijdc

Best wishes,

Zodiac.

[Fisherman]

Robert writes:

"You seem to be assuming that Sutcliffe's life is of equal value to those of his victims. I don't agree."

You see, Robert, what I try to refrain from is thinking that I could somehow be a valid judge of whos life is worth more and whose is worth less. It´s not until you allow yourself this, that you can come up with the idea that you are fit to pass judgement on other people and carry out verdicts.

In a sense, it is of course all very simple; society imposes a set of more or less severe norms and rules on us,and those who manage to live up to those norms and rules are regarded as better citizens than those who do not.
Those who fail very significantly - for example by killing for lust - end up at the bottom place of the list.
It all could not get much simpler than that, could it?

The truth is, though, as Claire writes in her very insightful post, that there are no easy answers about. Things are not all black or all white.

Natalie writes about an ordeal of her own, that has left her scarred to this day. And once again, things seem simple - she was wronged, and therefore she is left with some sort of rightful claim, either to live a happy life after what happened to her, somehow getting payed for the debt her assailant left her with - or to get back at him in some manner.

We need things to be evened out, we need the scales to stop tipping over, we want what we define as justice.
But who is to define and measure the amount of revenge we are to impose upon the perceived wrongdoers and normbreakers? Who are to carry out the punishment?

Robert tells us that Natalie is better cut out to see clearly what punishment Sutcliffe deserves than those who have been spared from evil. The thought behind that would be that it is easy enough to be idealistic as long as you live a protected life. The consequence of this leasurely life would be that it makes those who enjoy it in some sense naive.
I say that it is a damn sight MORE naive to believe that there is such a thing as benefiting from carrying out socially sanctioned violence.

Claire, once again:
"let's not turn ourselves into blood-baying savages who would look to the state to justify our own lust for violent retribution. That doesn't let us off the hook."
Exactly so.

Natalie left a question of mine unanswered. She wrote that she would not mind "them" pulling a sack over Peter Sutcliffes head and throwing him into the river to drown, and I asked who "them" were supposed to be. That question still stands, and not only for Natalie; it stands for anybody who is prepared to crave anybody elses blood in return for a criminal offense, no matter how sick and bad that offense may be.

Those who would be truly prepared to take Peter Sutcliffes life in exchange for his deeds would justify their own actions by saying that the world would be a better place without the likes of Sutcliffe in it. And they would of course be right.
The problem arises when those who speak of a better world start mixing that "better" up with it being a "good" thing to kill Sutcliffe. For the obvious truth is that a truly good world will never arise from a wish to see people have a sack pulled over their heads, and being thrown into the river to drown.

Dave, finally, writes that "state execution is not murder", and that is correct. By definition it is not so. It is, though, planning to take somebodys life and carrying out the plan by killing that somebody. And to do such a thing is what is legally defined as murder.
So no, these are not easy questions, just like Claire points out.

The best,
Fisherman

[Natalie Severn]

Fisherman ,with respect,you misread my post---and Claire"s.The point is that in order for a victim of abuse to be able to recover they have to reclaim their power.During the rape or attack or near murder or whatever they were totally powerless.Their powerless causes a wound that needs to be healed and will never heal unless they are helped to regain the power they were without during the attack---but they do this through the use of their imagination.These are psychologically proven medications Fisherman ---there really is no discussion.---please be sensitive to this I implore you for the sake of other victims of abuse who may be reading this thread.The big difference is that you do not take the law into your own hands by "acting out" your anger anger and actually drowning that person, for goodness sake.Nobody is actually recommending such a course of action.
Norma

[Fisherman]

Hi Natalie!

I did not misread you. The issue of reclaiming one´s power after having been robbed of it in connection with abuse of some sort is something I do not dispute, but it is not what this thread is about, and it was not what Claires initial post was about either.

I do not think that my stance is in any way detrimental to victims of abuse reading this thread. I think that they, more than most of us, have pondered questions of responsibility and revenge, and I an in no way sure that they would unanimously sentence the likes of Sutcliffe to pain and death. They may well have seen quite enough of it already.

"The big difference is that you do not take the law into your own hands by "acting out" your anger anger and actually drowning that person, for goodness sake."

So, what you meant was that entertaining a fantasy of a tormented and subesquentially killed Sutcliffe was what we need to heal ourselves? Aha. Then you should have said that, Natalie. It did not come out that way on your behalf, just as it did not do so on behalf of some other posters.

The best,
Fisherman

[claire]

To be fair, Fisherman, I think that these are tangled issues and it is sometimes very hard for us to disentangle what we feel we want to do, and what we actually *want*, or need, to do, and still be able to live with ourselves in part of a wider community. I think as the conversation on here progressed, Nats effectively separated those two, and provided an explanation for having conflated them (God knows it's easier just to say, I wish he was dead, than explain your reasons for feeling that way which, in fact, to her utter credit, Natalie did).

Beyond that issue, yeah, agree with everything you said.

[Fisherman]

Hmm, Claire - I can buy that. Point taken.

Natalie - maybe I did not get disentangled in time to realize your reasoning. Sorry about that. I am very, very tired of the mob mentality that often surrounds the tragedies that serial killings are, and I guess I let that carry me away somewhat.

The best,
Fisherman

[claire]

Exactly what was required for my tired and disenchanted brain right now, Fisherman...some Scandinavian pragmatism and straightforwardness Hope you had a good weekend.
cx