The Christie Case

[Rosella]

Just because Christie had killed before, Semper, doesn't mean that he killed Beryl. If Beryl had died anywhere but inside 10 Rillington Place, Evans would have been chief suspect in a domestic murder, the most common kind. A husband and wife quarrel, and somebody, usually the wife, ends up dead. Evans had attacked Beryl on several occasions, including trying to throw her out the window. Geraldine Evans didn't end up in the garden but with her mother in the outside wash-house. Evans disappeared to Wales after Beryl's sudden death, and what goes for Christie 'what was he going to do with a baby' also goes for Tim Evans.

I certainly think that the remains of Cora Crippen, which were found wrapped up in her husband's pyjamas, along with female items like a Hinde's curler with a bit of hair in it, was her. Cora, an immensely flamboyant woman, was never seen or heard of again after she and HH had had supper with the Martinellis and saw them off on that cold winter evening. The carefully deboned remains were hers without a doubt and the testing was flawed by contamination.

[Semper_Eadem]

Hey Caz!!! Haven't spoken with you since JTR Forums when I was posting under my actual name of George Lorton. Nice seeing that you are still posting and adding your good common sense. Like you, I find it hard to believe that there were two murderers in Christies house but then again sometimes the truth is stranger then fiction.

Geo~

Rosella, I agree with you in that the body was Cora's I am just saying that the Male DNA was probably from the pajamas, hence the skin they used for the DNA was probably contaminated.

However, regarding Christie. I believe Christie was a slimy little worm and pathological liar. I take anything he says with a grain of salt. Still, he confess to murdering Beryl and a 1966 inquiry into the case found that he probably murdered little Geraldine as well which good enough for me, terrible as it is, I had stated before all he, Christie had to do was abandon Geraldine somewhere but Christie being the sadistic cruel bastard he was he murdered that defenseless little girl. Then he did not have the balls to admit what he had done. I am afraid I would have to disagree with you on that. I hope that there is a hell and that Christie is frying in it.

Evans isn't all rosy either, which I never said he was but even if he slapped his wife around I do not think he would of murdered his own daughter but if I was presented with over whelming evidence to the contrary then I would admit that I am wrong.

Still, I like to think that Evans would of abandoned his daughter or sent her to his Mother saying that Beryl couldn't hack it but instead he goes to the police after trying to see his daughter and being refused by Christie!!! What the hell does Christie have to say on whether or not he, Evans can see his own daughter or not. Myself I would of been screaming for the cops right then but I wasn't in the mess in which Evans was in. Actually this whole case is a mess. But the facts are and still remain that Christie murdered a bunch of Women and would of probably murdered even more women had he not been caught. That we can all agree upon.

Cordially SE~

[Semper_Eadem]

Seriously this Case is a mess. I think Geraldine is the key to the Evans part of the case as I can sort of see Evans murdering Beryl but not his own toddler daughter. From what I have seen the scenario of Beryl trying to get an apportion from Christie and him murdering her because that was what he did fits too well. Speaking for myself I thank God fasting that I wasn't a woman in the family way in 1950 and forced to go to someone like Christie, the man was walking talking argument for planned parenthood.

[Rosella]

Yes, thank goodness he had no children of his own. Poor Ethel Christie!

[Semper_Eadem]

Hey Rosella,

Poor Ethel indeed. I wonder what hold Christie had over her. I am sure that there were days when the idea of turning on the gas and sticking her head in the oven or taking the housekeeping money and making a run for the hills would of entered her head but she stayed so he must of had quite a hold over her or she shut her eyes to what was going on. Until one day she probably came to the end of her tether with Mr. Christie, probably she wanted to know what happened to little Geraldine or put two and two together, and that was it for Ethel. I wonder if she tried to poison him or go at him with a knife. Just how long after Geraldine and Beryl's death was Mrs. Christie around before she too disappeared.

Not a happy home the Christie Home. Poor Ethel indeed!

[Rosella]

I think, from memory, Ethel had siblings, a brother or sister in Sheffield, and would go up and spend lengthy holidays there when she felt fed up. Of course very early in the marriage Christie had served a term of imprisonment and Ethel, totally disgusted, had left him. It was quite a lengthy separation and Ethel had settled down in another city working in an office. She was quite pretty as a young woman and one of her fellow workers was interested in her.

However, Reg, after his sentence promised he would reform, got himself a reasonable job (in spite of being fired for dishonesty on several occasions Christie seems to have had the gift of the gab and was able to talk his way into quite a few cushy office jobs in his lifetime) and so the Christies reconciled. I suppose in those days divorce was a real disgrace, even if you could afford it. Marriage was marriage for life and you made your own bed, now you lie in it, sort of thing.

Publicly, at least, Ethel stuck by him, rebuking the Evans family outside court at Tim Evans's trial. However, as both she and Reg got older, he couldn't really work because of his health problems and Ethel was suffering from a variety of problems as well including bronchial ones.

There's always the chance of course, that she did challenge him over Beryl or the other women, though personally I don't believe she thought Reg capable of murder. It was just that she was getting bronchial difficulties, didn't want to travel to her relatives as regularly as she had formerly, and in the end Christie's compulsion to bring women back to the flat and give them 'the treatment' was getting stronger. Ethel was a nuisance then, and had to go, poor thing.

[caz]

Just because Christie had killed before, Semper, doesn't mean that he killed Beryl. If Beryl had died anywhere but inside 10 Rillington Place, Evans would have been chief suspect in a domestic murder, the most common kind.

Hi Rosella,

But she did die inside that house, and nobody knew at that time that a serial killer lived there.

Geraldine Evans didn't end up in the garden but with her mother in the outside wash-house.

Quite so, and didn't the forensic evidence show they were killed in the same way? Since Christie confessed to killing Beryl, that convinces me he killed Geraldine too. He would have bragged in prison about all the grown women he killed, but was too much of a coward to admit he was also a child killer.

Don't forget, Evans would have had no idea how evil and manipulative Christie was, but the serial killer was more than capable of threatening Evans and making him feel responsible for his family's fate, even if he knew he hadn't killed them himself. He may have gone to the police because he was too frightened to stand up to Christie and accuse him face to face.

Love,

Caz
X

[Rosella]

Evans was in Wales when he first went to the police, (to confess about killing Beryl and the body being in a drain outside the house.) He had fled to Wales (far away from Christie) to stay with his uncle and aunt, who ultimately received a letter from Tim's mother which revealed that what he had told them when he had first arrived regarding his wife and daughter's whereabouts was a complete tissue of lies. He'd told them that Beryl and Geraldine were visiting Beryl's father in Brighton.

Don't forget that Tim also confessed to killing Geraldine by strangulation, with his own tie. He confessed on more than one occasion and in formal police statements. Reg Christie wasn't standing over him when he did so.

His fellow lodger may well have blinded Tim with science, talking authoritively on all sorts of subjects, pretending to be so learned, and yes Christie was a monster. However, that doesn't remove the possibility of there being two killers at 10 Rillington Place.

[caz]

You argue well, Rosella, but I'm sorry. Evans wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer and I am satisfied that Christie would have put the fear of God into him and convinced him he would get the blame for his wife and daughter's fate, no matter where he went, or what he said or did. There was no hiding place.

Evans had no idea Christie had killed before, and no reasonable chance of transferring the blame to him. Even if Christie went so far as to claim Beryl had died from an illegal abortion attempt (and he had sent Geraldine away to be looked after), he'd have told Evans he would be accused of consenting to it, thereby causing her death.

If we put ourselves into an innocent Evans's position, can you honestly say he'd have escaped the hangman by strenuously denying any involvement from the start?

Love,

Caz
X

[Rosella]

Christie was suffering badly from fibrositis throughout November. The doctor was convinced he was in great pain and genuinely had enteritis and fibrositis. He was off work because of it and would have been physically incapable of carrying any body or indeed of going upstairs two floors to the Evans's flat. Ethel was present at the Christie flat that afternoon and workmen were also around, in and out of the house

. One of them saw a woman he believed to be Beryl earlier in the day, as she was going out with a friend, and warned her to be careful as planks of wood would be temporarily laid on the stairs. She said "All right".

Christie attended the doctor's surgery, some way away, on Tuesday evening 8th November, the last day Beryl was seen alive. The Christies left 10 Rillington Place at about 5:30pm. The surgery opened at 6pm. Ethel accompanied Reg as far as the public library, where she borrowed books that evening. Christie went on to the surgery, which opened at 6pm. They walked there and back (no car.) Christie probably was not the first patient. He had to see the doctor, get another certificate, walk slowly back to the library, collect his wife and both walk slowly home. (People with fibrositis walk very slowly.)

Ethel Christie's statement, made to the police about the last time she saw Beryl 'That afternoon (Tuesday) Mrs Evans went out and asked me to keep an eye on her baby daughter. She said she would not be long. However, she had not returned by 5:30pm.'

Tim's statement to police 'I came home at night (Tuesday) about 6:30pm. My wife started to argue again so I hit her across the face with my flat hand. She then hit me back with her hand. In a fit of temper I grabbed a piece of rope from a chair which I had brought home off my van and strangled her with it.'

Tim Evans stated that he killed Geraldine on the 10th November, using his tie to strangle her. However, no-one heard Geraldine crying at all between the 8th November and the 10th. It's therefore likely that Geraldine died the same night as her mother and Evans deposited both bodies in Mr Kitchener's empty flat for the duration.

[Shaggyrand]

Beryl doesn't fit with most of Christie's murders to me, its missing a very significant element. There was no sign of sexual activity. So why didn't the man who was gassing, raping and strangling women rape Beryl? That was a pretty important part of what he did. He didn't rape Ethel either, as I recall, but her murder was more a practical necessity. He needed her money and valuables. It's a different purpose.
I tend to think he only confessed to killing Beryl because he liked the outrage and shock it would stir up.

[Limehouse]

Christie was suffering badly from fibrositis throughout November. The doctor was convinced he was in great pain and genuinely had enteritis and fibrositis. He was off work because of it and would have been physically incapable of carrying any body or indeed of going upstairs two floors to the Evans's flat. Ethel was present at the Christie flat that afternoon and workmen were also around, in and out of the house

. One of them saw a woman he believed to be Beryl earlier in the day, as she was going out with a friend, and warned her to be careful as planks of wood would be temporarily laid on the stairs. She said "All right".

Christie attended the doctor's surgery, some way away, on Tuesday evening 8th November, the last day Beryl was seen alive. The Christies left 10 Rillington Place at about 5:30pm. The surgery opened at 6pm. Ethel accompanied Reg as far as the public library, where she borrowed books that evening. Christie went on to the surgery, which opened at 6pm. They walked there and back (no car.) Christie probably was not the first patient. He had to see the doctor, get another certificate, walk slowly back to the library, collect his wife and both walk slowly home. (People with fibrositis walk very slowly.)

Ethel Christie's statement, made to the police about the last time she saw Beryl 'That afternoon (Tuesday) Mrs Evans went out and asked me to keep an eye on her baby daughter. She said she would not be long. However, she had not returned by 5:30pm.'

Tim's statement to police 'I came home at night (Tuesday) about 6:30pm. My wife started to argue again so I hit her across the face with my flat hand. She then hit me back with her hand. In a fit of temper I grabbed a piece of rope from a chair which I had brought home off my van and strangled her with it.'

Tim Evans stated that he killed Geraldine on the 10th November, using his tie to strangle her. However, no-one heard Geraldine crying at all between the 8th November and the 10th. It's therefore likely that Geraldine died the same night as her mother and Evans deposited both bodies in Mr Kitchener's empty flat for the duration.

And yet, this condition of Christies' did not prevent him from later on murdering and entombing three women within the kitchen cupboard and murdering his own wife, concealing her body beneath the floor boards? Doing all that would have taken considerable strength and stamina, I would think.

[caz]

Christie was suffering badly from fibrositis throughout November. The doctor was convinced he was in great pain and genuinely had enteritis and fibrositis. He was off work because of it and would have been physically incapable of carrying any body or indeed of going upstairs two floors to the Evans's flat. Ethel was present at the Christie flat that afternoon and workmen were also around, in and out of the house

. One of them saw a woman he believed to be Beryl earlier in the day, as she was going out with a friend, and warned her to be careful as planks of wood would be temporarily laid on the stairs. She said "All right".

Christie attended the doctor's surgery, some way away, on Tuesday evening 8th November, the last day Beryl was seen alive. The Christies left 10 Rillington Place at about 5:30pm. The surgery opened at 6pm. Ethel accompanied Reg as far as the public library, where she borrowed books that evening. Christie went on to the surgery, which opened at 6pm. They walked there and back (no car.) Christie probably was not the first patient. He had to see the doctor, get another certificate, walk slowly back to the library, collect his wife and both walk slowly home. (People with fibrositis walk very slowly.)

My heart bleeds. The poor man was obviously innocent.

Tim Evans stated that he killed Geraldine on the 10th November, using his tie to strangle her. However, no-one heard Geraldine crying at all between the 8th November and the 10th. It's therefore likely that Geraldine died the same night as her mother and Evans deposited both bodies in Mr Kitchener's empty flat for the duration.

So Christie could make a false confession to killing Beryl, but not Evans?

Again, I don't buy this for an instant. Evans was doomed as the husband and father of these particular two victims. He was not only the prime suspect, but the only conceivable suspect. He would never know about Christie's sexual motives for killing women, and at the time nobody else did either. Evans handed Beryl to this predator on a plate and he couldn't resist, even though there was a small child in the mix this time.

What was the forensic evidence that showed Christie performed a penetrative act of rape on all his other victims apart from Ethel, who was killed for non-sexual motives? Don't some serial sexual stranglers ejaculate during the act of strangulation, and wasn't Christie once known as "Reggie No Dick"?

Love,

Caz
X

[Rosella]

The killing of Ethel and Hectorina etc did not involve two flights of stairs or dragging/carrying dead bodies into wash houses down two flights.

I didn't say anything about penetrative rape, by Christie. I think that was Shag.

I don't have an ounce of sympathy for Christie at all. However, I don't believe he killed Beryl and Geraldine Evans. You obviously do, Caz, so we'll just have to agree to disagree with this one.

[Shaggyrand]

Yup. I am the one who mentioned rape. Christie had nothing physically wrong with him and his dysfunction was emotional- at least going by his autopsy findings and a couple books claiming he never had the problem with prostitutes. Yes, more than 23 years before the murders he was given the nickname "Reggie No-Dick". Yes, some serial stranglers ejaculate during the act. We could actually widen that to "many sexual serial killers of all varieties". It is just strange that he would experience this problem with Beryl when it seems, to me anyway, that the intention of murder allowed him to overcome this problem. Besides his first victim he had a relationship of some kind with all the others. He even went out of his way to form relationships with his last three victims.

It is just an odd anomaly to me. That's all.