The Christie Case

[Semper_Eadem]

Seriously this Case is a mess. I think Geraldine is the key to the Evans part of the case as I can sort of see Evans murdering Beryl but not his own toddler daughter. From what I have seen the scenario of Beryl trying to get an apportion from Christie and him murdering her because that was what he did fits too well. Speaking for myself I thank God fasting that I wasn't a woman in the family way in 1950 and forced to go to someone like Christie, the man was walking talking argument for planned parenthood.

[Semper_Eadem]

Hey Caz!!! Haven't spoken with you since JTR Forums when I was posting under my actual name of George Lorton. Nice seeing that you are still posting and adding your good common sense. Like you, I find it hard to believe that there were two murderers in Christies house but then again sometimes the truth is stranger then fiction.

Geo~

Rosella, I agree with you in that the body was Cora's I am just saying that the Male DNA was probably from the pajamas, hence the skin they used for the DNA was probably contaminated.

However, regarding Christie. I believe Christie was a slimy little worm and pathological liar. I take anything he says with a grain of salt. Still, he confess to murdering Beryl and a 1966 inquiry into the case found that he probably murdered little Geraldine as well which good enough for me, terrible as it is, I had stated before all he, Christie had to do was abandon Geraldine somewhere but Christie being the sadistic cruel bastard he was he murdered that defenseless little girl. Then he did not have the balls to admit what he had done. I am afraid I would have to disagree with you on that. I hope that there is a hell and that Christie is frying in it.

Evans isn't all rosy either, which I never said he was but even if he slapped his wife around I do not think he would of murdered his own daughter but if I was presented with over whelming evidence to the contrary then I would admit that I am wrong.

Still, I like to think that Evans would of abandoned his daughter or sent her to his Mother saying that Beryl couldn't hack it but instead he goes to the police after trying to see his daughter and being refused by Christie!!! What the hell does Christie have to say on whether or not he, Evans can see his own daughter or not. Myself I would of been screaming for the cops right then but I wasn't in the mess in which Evans was in. Actually this whole case is a mess. But the facts are and still remain that Christie murdered a bunch of Women and would of probably murdered even more women had he not been caught. That we can all agree upon.

Cordially SE~

[Rosella]

Just because Christie had killed before, Semper, doesn't mean that he killed Beryl. If Beryl had died anywhere but inside 10 Rillington Place, Evans would have been chief suspect in a domestic murder, the most common kind. A husband and wife quarrel, and somebody, usually the wife, ends up dead. Evans had attacked Beryl on several occasions, including trying to throw her out the window. Geraldine Evans didn't end up in the garden but with her mother in the outside wash-house. Evans disappeared to Wales after Beryl's sudden death, and what goes for Christie 'what was he going to do with a baby' also goes for Tim Evans.

I certainly think that the remains of Cora Crippen, which were found wrapped up in her husband's pyjamas, along with female items like a Hinde's curler with a bit of hair in it, was her. Cora, an immensely flamboyant woman, was never seen or heard of again after she and HH had had supper with the Martinellis and saw them off on that cold winter evening. The carefully deboned remains were hers without a doubt and the testing was flawed by contamination.

[caz]

Good post, Semper.

Love,

Caz
X

[Semper_Eadem]

I think the murder of Beryl and Geraldine should be laid on Christie as he had killed women before. As far as I know Evans had never murdered anyone. yet Christie had, making it very likely that he murdered Beryl and then Geraldine. What is Christie going to do with a one year old. He could of left her somewhere but instead he strangled her and probably buried her in the garden.

Christie himself confessed to Beryl's murder. He know that the public outcry would be if he confessed to murdering a defenseless toddler so he kept quiet about murdering little Geraldine but an inquiry in 1966 judged him guilty of that as well, probably with compelling reasons.

---
As for the flap of skin of Cora Crippen's being found to be male, well she was wearing men's pajamas when she was murdered and her body was wrapped in them. Perhaps DNA from the jammies contaminated her remains with DNA from someone who had worn them before she had?

[Rosella]

I certainly don't believe that the body found at Crippen's house was anyone other than Mrs Crippen, otherwise known as Belle Elmore. On the other hand, as regards the events at 10 Rillington Place, I do believe it is possible that two killers lived there, one a serial killer driven by his own compulsions, the other a rather bad tempered young man who had a troubled marriage and killed his wife in a rage, a common or garden domestic homicide. Evans knew nothing of Christie's proclivities, I believe, but I certainly think Christie knew what Evans had been up to.

[caz]

I'm not sure I could stomach any drama suggesting there were two active murderers living in that house at the same time. For me it would be almost as bad as a drama suggesting Crippen's wife survived and the remains found were male.

Love,

Caz
X

[contrafib]

Oh dear, seems like that Tim Roth version is simply taking the 'standard version'. So, other than just a decent piece of drama, it seems utterly pointless.

Does nobody know anyone with filmmaking capabilities who could put together something with 2 possible scenarios, both given equal validity? I'd promote it to the hilt if they could

Maybe a narrated version of John Curnow's excellent e-book??

[miss marple]

I have just watched the Dineage doc on TV. I thought it was quite good as a summery of the case. Where does the description of 'inaccurate' come in. I suppose if you believe Evans killed either Beryl or Geraldine you would think it was inaccurate.
Murdering Ruth Fuerst because Christie thought she would welch to Ethel seems logical and then discovering he good a kick out of murder.
Christie did not have to be an abortionist, he just had to convince women he was. It was a good excuse to get them in the chair.I don't think Ethel helped him, but she was under his thumb. They did present a united front at the Evans trial.
I don't think Evans was a killer, never have. He was a man of weak intellect easily manipulated by a devious psycopath who he trusted.
The most interesting aspect of the Dineage doc was the evidence of the forensic writing expert and the sophisticated language used in the confession statement by Evans,which was not his normal speech. It was easy for the police to manipulate his confession. There have been many inaccurate 'confession' statements over the years by weak minded individuals.
Psycopaths like control and power and withhold information to retain that power. Ian Brady is an example. Christie retained control by denying the murder of Geraldine and then causing more pain to Evan's Mother by denying he murdered Beryl. So he kept control to the last.

I loved the Attenborough film, in spite of its faults, very well made and creepy.

Miss Marple

'

[Rosella]

Yes, until Reg murdered her, which was the end for her. I think Christie had his compulsion to kill becoming more and more urgent in the last weeks of his wife's life and Ethel was a nuisance and in the way.

I disagree about Tim Evans. He was a dishonest and quite violent character and would be capable of murder.

[caz]

I think Ethel maybe suspected Reg was often up to no good, but publicly she defended him and she did stay with him till the end after that early separation.

Hi Rosella,

Until he murdered her, you mean? I think he was afraid Ethel suspected him and he had to keep her quiet.

His motive for the others was sexual, but once he had killed several times I don't suppose killing his wife was as difficult for him as it might otherwise have been. He was one evil and devious bastard.

I don't believe for one second that Evans killed his own wife or baby.

Love,

Caz
X

[Rosella]

I also think that Christie could well have been involved in the publication and distribution of pornography as a sideline. It was one of his kinks and certainly something he found enjoyable.

As the self righteous little prig that he was police informing may also have been a hobby, nay a public duty, for him. Whether he pulled favours to become a special police Constable is debatable though. In the chaos of wartime in a pre database age, Christie's previous criminal convictions, especially so far back in time, may well have just allowed him to slip through the net. After all, Donald Merrett alias Ronald Chesney, the Scottish matricide, ended up in the Royal Naval Reserve in World War Two, and the authorities never checked up on him!

[Rosella]

Christie must have had self esteem issues! He was a man who seemed to be constantly boosting his reputation up to others." Oh yes, I was a doctor you know, before..." and then some misfortune would be invented which had prevented him from becoming a renowned specialist!

I am sure he did hint to pregnant women that he could solve their little problems for them. He seems to have wanted to be regarded as Mr Omnipotent. However, an out of date first aid book quite obviously does not give the medical know how to perform any medical procedure. Too messy and I just don't think he'd risk it.

After all, his main focus was to get potential victims alone so he could kill and have sex, something he managed by spruiking his method of banishing bronchial problems. With abortions there are sometimes boyfriends and husbands involved, not all as weak minded as Tim Evans.

I especially don't believe that Ethel would be involved in procuring abortions. She was childless herself and I think she would have found such a suggestion very upsetting. Of course, I didn't know her, but from everything that I have read she appears to have been honest to the point of naïveté. Certainly the police regarded her as an honest woman at the time of the police search of 10 Rillington Place. I think Ethel maybe suspected Reg was often up to no good, but publicly she defended him and she did stay with him till the end after that early separation.

I think it's entirely possible that Christie killed elsewhere, especially during times when Ethel was away. He may even have done so much earlier than anyone has ever suggested.

[Sherlock]

Here are several mysteries arising from the Christie case which have not been resolved and probably never will be:-

1) Did Christie ever carry out an abortion or attempt to do do, as he seems to have claimed to various people to be able to do do?

2) Was he involved with the production or distribution of pornography? He claimed to have taken indecent photographs of a girl named Maureen Briggs in the presence of Kathleen Maloney, one of his final three victims. According to Ludovic Kennedy this took place in a room near Marylebone Lane. Honest John also refers to these activities in his book.

3) As John Eddowes suggests in his book, was he a police informer and did this enable him to be appointed as a Special Constable in 1939 in spite of his criminal record?

4) Why did he commit his first known murder of Ruth Fuerst in 1943 when his previous convictions had mainly been for relatively minor and non-violent crimes, apart from his assault on Maud Cole in 1929? As Honest John has suggested, did he murder Fuerst out of necessity and then resolved to kill again as he had enjoyed the experience?

5) If he did not murder Beryl and Geraldine Evans himself, what did he actually know about these killings?

6) What, if anything, did Ethel know about his activities? Did she ever suspect that he might be a murderer?

7) Did he ever commit any other murders outside 10 Rillington Place?

[Sherlock]

If Christie had indeed performed an abortion on any woman, which is far from certain, it would be highly unlikely that they would have come forward after the trial due to the stigma involved and the fact that such operations were illegal, although there must have been quite a few "back street abortionists" in the early 1950s.

It is difficult to know what to make of Trevallion's claim. Perhaps Christie lied to him that he and his wife had carried out abortions for reasons known only to himself. On the other hand, if Christie was indeed involved with them, which is only a slight possibility, then there may have been some truth in Evans's statement that Christie had offered to perform an abortion on Beryl.

Probably the whole truth will never be known.