The Christie Case

[RivkahChaya]

I have no idea why it would take so much time to locate Beryl, unless the family had no idea to look in Catholic cemeteries.

If a Jew converts to Catholicism to marry a Catholic, the person is still considered Jewish, and can at at any time, even death, return to Judaism, and so can be buried in a Jewish cemetery, Geraldine would have been a more interesting case, If she asked a beit din if she were Jewish to rule on her status, when she was an adult, after having no Jewish upbringing, it is hard t say what they would rule. Recently, in the US, there has been a sort of "rule" to use the word in it's vernacular, that in a family which has turned to another religion, or simply ceased to raise their children as Jewish, four generations are required before a child loses the right to become ba'al tshuvah, and must convert.

Under a ruling like that, Geraldine would be Jewish.

[Pcdunn]

Just an observation from a "cradle Catholic"-- my mother was required to take classes in Catholicism and convert from her Methodist faith, before marrying my Catholic father. This was in the early 1940s, though in California.

I don't think Beryl could have married a Catholic man without a similar conversion, unless they did not have a church wedding. I thought among Jews the faith was through the mother's line, not the father's, anyway?

[Brickbat]

It seems that Beryl Evans also had a brother named Peter and a sister named Pat as well as her brother Basil.

In an article in the Sunday Mirror Beryl's brother who is named Peter Mylton-Thorley has stated that he wishes the bodies of Beryl and Geraldine to be exhumed from Gunnersbury Roman Catholic cemetery and re-interrred in a Jewish cemetery as Beryl was in fact Jewish herself. He also states that he would sometimes visit Beryl at 10 Rillington Place and if she was out he would have a cup of tea and a sticky bun with the Christies until she returned. He states that he was working in New Zealand at the time Beryl was murdered and did not discover her grave until 2003.

This is certainly interesting information as I had no idea that Beryl was Jewish. As far as I am aware this has never been mentioned previously in any book or article about the case and so it cannot have been widely known. I was also unaware that Beryl had another brother and a sister as well as her brother Basil. The article has a picture of Beryl as a child with her brothers Peter and Basil and her sister Pat, as well as as a recent picture of Basil, Peter and Pat as adults and another of Peter with his wife.

This is all very intriguing. I would assume that Beryl was originally buried in a Catholic cemetery as her husband was Catholic and Geraldine may possibly have been given a Catholic baptism. At the same time it is difficult to understand why Peter did not discover Beryl's grave until 2003 as it's location had been mentioned in several accounts of the case previously, including Forty Years of Murder by Keith Simpson published in the 1970s. Basil also stated that it had taken many years to discover Beryl's grave when he appeared in a documentary a couple of years or so ago.

Surely Beryl's family would have been notified of her place of burial when her funeral took place? If they were not, then why not? Why did they not make enquiries at the time of her death? This is yet another mystery arising from the cases of Christie and Evans.

The sudden appearance of Beryl's "lost" relatives late last year was indeed a major revelation. So far, we only knew of Basil, Beryl's younger brother who was only 17 at the time, who knew Evans very well, and was totally convinced of his brother-in-law's guilt, stating such explicitely in John's Eddowes' book.

I consider it almost unbelievable that the authorities had no idea of Beryl's background when interring her twice (1949 and 1953) in a Catholic graveyard.

I wonder whether Lucy Endecott and Joan Vincent, close friends of Beryl who were still in their late teens at the time of the 1949 murders, are still alive.

[Pcdunn]

Interesting read!

I've recently seen the first television drama to cover the Christie case, The Dreams of Tim Evans (ITV 1970).

This late-night half-hour was a sort of acorn from which grew the 1971 Richard Attenborough film (same writer), and as I've recently seen it, some may be interested to know a little more about it:

https://dreamsgatheringdust.wordpres...017/03/07/192/

Very informative, as I know next to nothing about the murders or the films about it. Thank you for sharing the link, Writerboy.

[Writerboy]

I've recently seen the first television drama to cover the Christie case, The Dreams of Tim Evans (ITV 1970).

This late-night half-hour was a sort of acorn from which grew the 1971 Richard Attenborough film (same writer), and as I've recently seen it, some may be interested to know a little more about it:

https://dreamsgatheringdust.wordpress.com/2017/03/07/192/

[Sam Flynn]

...as for anything Christie said well I would take that with a grain of salt.

"Or NaCl₂ as we call it"

(oblique reference to the Attenborough film)

[John Wheat]

I think the reason no explanation was offered for why Christie did what he did was because there was really no explanation offered in Christie's real life. Not Really! Sure people have theories but that is all they are theories and as for anything Christie said well I would take that with a grain of salt.

I think we've got to bare in mind Christie was a perverted necrophiliac serial killer.

[Semper_Eadem]

I think the reason no explanation was offered for why Christie did what he did was because there was really no explanation offered in Christie's real life. Not Really! Sure people have theories but that is all they are theories and as for anything Christie said well I would take that with a grain of salt.

[contrafib]

Hello friends, Merry Xmas to all.
I have now belatedly watched the BBC Rillington Place drama and have a few observations to share. I think we’ve already covered the differences in details between this and what we know to be true in terms of dates and switching of the identities of certain people, and I’m going to refrain from calling them ‘errors’, as the makers clearly knew most or all of them. I concur with Honest John that an opportunity was missed, and I will address the validity of ‘drama based on real events’ in my conclusion.
I feel that Tim Roth did a good characterisation of Christie, with his physical stoop and overall air of weakness and sickliness, and his quite subtle but noticeable shortness of breath was effective. Samantha Morton also gave a good performance, at first appearing too attractive for Ethel but getting progressively plumper and dowdier as the years went on. This is important because whether or not Ethel was naive, she would surely have suspected something over such a long period with Reg, and her lack of sexual market value would be a plausible explanation for her staying with him. Their relationship was believable, and in a drama the makers are forgiven some license and use of dramatic tropes, such as her covering for Reg in the case of Muriel Eady’s coat and her moral quandary. However, the choking scene was pretty unnecessary and the same idea could have been conveyed in a more subtle way.
The gloominess of Rillington Place was effectively conveyed, with the use of smoke, grime and the lack of people around adding to the sense of isolation and a genuinely sad life. I was surprised how oversized the Christies’ front room was, as was the Evans’ front room and indeed the courtroom. In the case of the rooms in the house, I suppose this was done for filming purposes but was clearly inaccurate. As for Evans, I felt that John Hurt’s portrayal of an excitable young drunk in the first film was more effective than the one here. There was much use of dramatic license in the trial scene, and I would have liked to have seen Christie breaking down to cry as he did in reality, because it would have made it less cut and dried (see conclusion for more comment on this) and offered more ambiguity as undoubtedly existed.
The episode from Reg’s point of view was interesting, and I was pleased to see that his killing of his wife was not melodramatic, as I feared that some kind of domestic scene would play out where she threatened to shop him to the police and he slowly tightened the noose around her neck. Instead, it was quick, brutal and messy, as I believe it probably was in reality.
In conclusion, I wanted to address the unsatisfactory ending. As mentioned above, I forgive the filmmakers their artistic license for the sake of drama and also the tropes of making characters and certain scenes more clear-cut and less ambiguous. However, I must ask why there was no explanation at all offered for Christie’s crimes if this is the case. He was interviewed by psychiatrists, and we know certain things about his childhood, so as others have mentioned why not at least attempt to explain a few things to at least offer some lessons from this otherwise sordid and sorry tale? It’s also worth pondering whether real events should be used for drama for any reason other than to draw in viewers. I don’t have a definitive answer on this but I’d definitely be interested in others’ opinions.

[Sherlock]

I think Christie also mentioned seeing his dead grandfather in his memoirs which were published in the Sunday Pictorial with the help of journalist Harry Procter, but of course we have no way of knowing how much of what he said was true.

Incidentally, I believe this newspaper paid for Christie's defence team at his trial in return for his memoirs. He was defended by Derek Curtis-Bennett QC.

[Sherlock]

Hi Caz


Yes, as far as I am aware we only have Christie's own word about seeing his grandfather in his coffin. If I remember correctly he told that to one of the psychiatrists who examined him before the trial. Apparently he enjoyed playing in the cemetery at All Souls church near his home in Chester Road, Halifax after this. Ludovic Kennedy stated in his book that one of Christie's friends noticed that he seemed to be particularly fascinated by a number of children's coffins which could be seen through a broken slab which covered a grave.

Interestingly, two other murderers are believed to have had similar experiences. Dennis Neilson apparently envied the peace and serenity which seemed to surround the body of his grandfather after it had been brought home following his death on a fishing boat, and I think Harold Shipman had similar feelings after seeing his mother's body after her death from cancer. However, I accept that in both of these cases, as with Christie, it would be very difficult to determine if this was indeed a factor which influenced them in committing murders.

One of the psychiatrists who gave evidence at Christie's trial, although I forget which one, possibly J.A. Hobson who gave evidence for the defence, stated that he felt that Christie enjoyed living in close proximity to the corpses he had concealed in his house. I shall have to check up on this.

[spyglass]

Hi,
The fact that the Police messed up big time.
If they had searched the garden properly in the first place.
The drama didn't show this whole debacle of the case.

Regards

[caz]

I accept that to include flashbacks of Christie's earlier life it would have been necessary to present the story in a different way. One possible flashback might have been of Christie viewing his grandfather's body in his coffin as a young boy, which apparently fuelled his fascination with corpses and may have had an influence on his development as a murderer.

Hi Sherlock,

I suppose it depends on the source for your 'apparently'. If it was Christie himself who blamed this boyhood incident for his morbid fascination as an adult, I wouldn't trust it for a moment. And who else could say that one had had a bearing on the other?

Many children of that era - and beyond - would have had similar experiences without any lasting ill effects, never mind developing criminal tendencies as a result. Even when my daughter started school in 1992, not yet five years old, her teacher showed the class a photo of somebody's "grandma and grandad" in their coffins to get the children used to the idea of death! Luckily I had already had that discussion with her so she took it in her stride. Later, in her next school, the teacher unaccountably decided to give the girls a sex education lesson by showing them a film of horses mating. You wouldn't give it credence, would you? But again, luckily, I had already had that discussion with my daughter, so she took that in her stride too.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

I found the last episode ghastly in the extreme. When they hanged him, I said to my husband 'never did a man deserve it more' and yet I do not even hold with capital punishment.

Me too, Limehouse. There could be more than one reason why Christie refused to admit to the murder of baby Geraldine, after confessing to the others. Evans was only convicted of killing his daughter, so if Christie had owned up to that one too, he'd have had absolutely no chance of escaping the hangman on the grounds of insanity or any kind of diminished responsibility, nor of being shown the slightest mercy by the jury, his fellow prisoners or the public at large.

The child's killing would have been seen as a necessary practicality to get her out of the way following the murder of her mother, and it would have been crystal clear to all that he had acted out a cruel and calculated charade throughout Evans's trial, knowing the man was entirely innocent and that he was the one sending him to his execution to shift the blame from himself. By denying this one murder - arguably the saddest of them all - he has left himself with just enough wriggle room to this day, to allow people to believe that Evans was at least rightly on trial and equally guilty of murder, regardless of numbers.

Love,

Caz
X

[Limehouse]

I found the last episode ghastly in the extreme. When they hanged him, I said to my husband 'never did a man deserve it more' and yet I do not even hold with capital punishment.

Like Caz, I don't believe Evans killed his wife or daughter. Christie was a monster and poor Evans was rather inadequate and immature but, in my opinion, not a killer.