R.L.S., H.J., & E.H.: a questions of sources and results

[Pierre]

Thanks Pierre for explaining it. Did this theory on Postmodernity arise in the 1950s or earlier? The reason I ask was that your description happened to remind me of the gist (towards the end of the book) of Walter Lord's account of the "Titanic" disaster, "A Night to Remember". He pointed out that (according to him, or course) the ship labelled "unsinkable" was supposed to be the most promising example of the marriage of science and progress in society in 1912, and it's destruction with heavy loss of life was a thunderbolt to the public, shaking confidence in the progress of science for society. This would be enhanced (tragically) in two years by the start of the Great War, and society after 1918 is certainly far more fragmented around the globe than it was in say 1900 or even 1912.

Lord wrote "A Night to Remember" in 1955. That's why I wondered about the dating of the start of this theory.

Jeff

Postmodernism is a rather early concept, postmodernity is a later concept.

But this is off topic, now.

Kind regards, Pierre

[David Orsam]

Pierre would have had to dig deeper to find a mention in the play of the Lord Mayor's procession and the coach. Again (sorry David) it looks like he did tell us the truth this time.

You keep giving this guy way too much credit Jeff. He didn't know anything about the procession and/or coach being mentioned in the play.

This is all he ever said about the connection between the play and the Gogmagog letter:

"Lord Tennyson...wrote a drama called Queen Mary. In this drama there is Queen Mary, Queen Elizabeth and the Lord Mayor."

That was it. Only the fact that the Lord Mayor is a character in the play has ever been mentioned by Pierre. Nothing about the procession.

As for the coach, that link was from a totally different document. Tennyson mentioned the grand gilt coach in a private 1861 letter to his wife that wasn't published until after his death (and after the JTR murders). Gogmagog mentioned the "the grand old gilt coach" in his letter and this was Pierre's famous Tennyson link with the coach (even though Gogmagog couldn't have seen Tennyson's letter), nothing to do with the play.

[Mayerling]

You keep giving this guy way too much credit Jeff. He didn't know anything about the procession and/or coach being mentioned in the play.

This is all he ever said about the connection between the play and the Gogmagog letter:

"Lord Tennyson...wrote a drama called Queen Mary. In this drama there is Queen Mary, Queen Elizabeth and the Lord Mayor."

That was it. Only the fact that the Lord Mayor is a character in the play has ever been mentioned by Pierre. Nothing about the procession.

As for the coach, that link was from a totally different document. Tennyson mentioned the grand gilt coach in a private 1861 letter to his wife that wasn't published until after his death (and after the JTR murders). Gogmagog mentioned the "the grand old gilt coach" in his letter and this was Pierre's famous Tennyson link with the coach (even though Gogmagog couldn't have seen Tennyson's letter), nothing to do with the play.

Occasionally we might. Well, anyway...

Shall we now get back to the issues regarding Stevenson and Jeckyll and Hyde and this thread?

Jeff

[Abby Normal]

Well Dave, it is the New Year. Let's try to be a little forbearing here - after all my own ideas can be totally wrong too.

Forgetting Pierre for the moment, what do you think of the possibility of some kind of influence by reading or (if seeing the play with Mansfield in it) on the killer?

Jeff

Hi Mayer
I've always been fascinated with this question. It just blows me away that this story and play was around right before the start of the murders as well as the start of Sherlock Holmes character.

However, very rarely do serial killers allude to specific fictional characters as inspiration, if it at all, so I don't think we will really know.

[DJA]

Well, anyway...

Shall we now get back to the issues regarding Stevenson and Jekyll and Hyde and this thread?

Jeff

Let's pretend Dr J and Mr Hyde were real people and keep in mind RLS's health,medication and the libel laws.

Dr J was a wealthy MD worth ~ 250,000 pounds.
Mr H seems to be his protege and not an MD.

Dr J is large, Mr H is small.

Dr J lives in a wealthy Square and Mr H in "that square in Soho".

Reckon the time frame of the novella stretches from events ~ 1868 to 1885.

Who do we think Dr J might be?

Those who already know can keep quiet

Hint. Mr H not only had access to Dr J's backyard,he actually lived next door.

Many of the facts have been switched and there are several hidden clues.

Sir Danvers Carew,MP actually died,by memory, in June 1885 and not by Mr H's direct hand.
The names are clues. Someone here has been working on a book about the Prayer Book Rebellion

The Labouchere Amendment,August 1885 was sometimes referred to as the blackmailer's charter.

[Mayerling]

Hi Mayer
I've always been fascinated with this question. It just blows me away that this story and play was around right before the start of the murders as well as the start of Sherlock Holmes character.

However, very rarely do serial killers allude to specific fictional characters as inspiration, if it at all, so I don't think we will really know.

You may be fully correct Abby - there is plenty that we will never know for certain. But you never can tell. One of the classic studies on murder cases, "Murder For Profit" by William Bolitho, has a section on the 1869 "Pantin" murders of Jean-Baptiste Troppman (of the entire Kinck Family) with the goal of appropriating there property for his own use. It turned out that Troppman liked the then popular novel, "The Wandering Jew" of Eugene Sue, which details a conspiracy to wipe out the different heirs to a huge fortune by various strategems. While Sue's novel was an attack on the Jesuits (the villain is a Jesuit priest who is determined to make himself head of the order with the use of the fortune), the basic concept of translating wiping out a bunch of people to get their money was there.

I admit this does not always hold, but I do have a feeling that there is always an interaction between the culture of a period and it's figures. Maybe the germ of the evil ideas were in Jack to begin with, but he may have gotten hints of inspiration here and there from the books or magazines or plays of the day.

Hope you had a good New Years Eve.

Jeff

[Abby Normal]

You may be fully correct Abby - there is plenty that we will never know for certain. But you never can tell. One of the classic studies on murder cases, "Murder For Profit" by William Bolitho, has a section on the 1869 "Pantin" murders of Jean-Baptiste Troppman (of the entire Kinck Family) with the goal of appropriating there property for his own use. It turned out that Troppman liked the then popular novel, "The Wandering Jew" of Eugene Sue, which details a conspiracy to wipe out the different heirs to a huge fortune by various strategems. While Sue's novel was an attack on the Jesuits (the villain is a Jesuit priest who is determined to make himself head of the order with the use of the fortune), the basic concept of translating wiping out a bunch of people to get their money was there.

I admit this does not always hold, but I do have a feeling that there is always an interaction between the culture of a period and it's figures. Maybe the germ of the evil ideas were in Jack to begin with, but he may have gotten hints of inspiration here and there from the books or magazines or plays of the day.

Hope you had a good New Years Eve.

Jeff

Same to you Mayer.
Well the zodiac was probably partially inspired by the most dangerous game and hinckly by the taxi driver, but IMHO any "inspiration" would only be marginall, because the fantasy or delusion, to kill goes much deeper.

[Pierre]

Did the Whitechapel killer have any awareness of Stevenson's creation(s) from the novella or the play with Mansfield, as I asked regarding Conan Doyle's published first "Sherlock Holmes" story. Certainly it is something to ponder. If we dismiss a well educated and read Ripper from our minds, considering only a lower class working man who has no interest outside of his work and lifestyle, than the issue is not important. But if the Ripper was well read, one wonders if he was building up a private reading list for ideas or inspiration. However, one thing is certain. As of now we have never linked the Ripper to the murder of any benevolent Members of Parliament like Sir Danvers Carew. Possibly our unknown killer was too sharp to go that far with any attempts at imitation.

Hi Jeff,

Since we are now back to the topic I can just give my simple answers to your questions.

I have a very realistic perspective on the case and I think that Jack the Ripper had no interest in inspiration from literature.

The only interest possible, as I see it, was the interest of gaining something by using references to literature.

Therefore, this use must be visible in some source(s), otherwise it is hopeless.

Regards, Pierre

[DJA]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics_(Spinoza)

The type of literature Jack read.

Seemed fond of St Luke's Gospel.

Also possibly Thomas Carlyle

[Mayerling]

Hi Jeff,

Since we are now back to the topic I can just give my simple answers to your questions.

I have a very realistic perspective on the case and I think that Jack the Ripper had no interest in inspiration from literature.

The only interest possible, as I see it, was the interest of gaining something by using references to literature.

Therefore, this use must be visible in some source(s), otherwise it is hopeless.

Regards, Pierre

Fair enough Pierre.

Jeff

[Henry Flower]

Hi Jeff,

Since we are now back to the topic I can just give my simple answers to your questions.

I have a very realistic perspective on the case and I think that Jack the Ripper had no interest in inspiration from literature.

The only interest possible, as I see it, was the interest of gaining something by using references to literature.

Therefore, this use must be visible in some source(s), otherwise it is hopeless.

Regards, Pierre

Says the man who 'studies the cultural production of literature' but who has demonstrated that he literally does not know what 'metaphor' means.

[Mayerling]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics_(Spinoza)

The type of literature Jack read.

Seemed fond of St Luke's Gospel.

Also possibly Thomas Carlyle

Whither St. Luke's Gospel and Carlyle, and what specifically by Carlyle?

Hmmm. If there is a connection between Baruch Spinoza's Ethics and Jack, perhaps it could be stretched (and I think of it as a stretch) between these and the GSG.

Think of the statement (if I get it wrong you'll correct), "The Juwes will not be the men blamed for nothing" (or whatever it actually was). Spinoza was one of the great men of history who happened to be Jewish (like Einstein, or Freud), and his views got him kicked out of the congregation he belonged to in Holland. The rabbis (I refuse to use the anti-Semitic term "Elders of Zion") felt Spinoza's philosophical point of view was heretical regarding Judaism (in 17th Century Europe there was only what is now "Orthodox Judaism", except for a number of nuts who believed a Jew named Sabbatai Zebi or Zevi was the Messiah and converted to Islam when he did (under pain of death) in the 1650s - they formed a cult that lasted for about one hundred years). If you wish here the "Juwes" acted as "Judges" but the point is that their religious leadership did not like Spinoza or his ideas. Now if it connects (weirdly as it might) to the Spinoza business then:

1) the bulk of the world Jews will not be blamed for what they think Spinoza's ideas are worth - nothing.
2) the Jews (in 19th Century Britain and the world) are not to be blamed for what Jack did when influenced by Spinoza.
3) the "Judges" (here the rabbis) should not be blamed for what happened in Whitechapel, or present day ones for what was done to Spinoza.

Probably there are other interpretations, but I let you imagine them.*

Still, the Carlyle suggested connection is interesting. Thomas Carlyle was dead in 1888, but only by seven years (dying in February 1881, if I am correct). He was a man who liked using the cultural phenomenon of his own time as sign posts for the thinking of his age (remember "Morrison's Pill", a real patent medicine that was popular that he used in "Past and Present" in a philosophical version). He also liked murder trials - think of how he created an image for "respectability" from a line from a witness about the unfortunate victim William Weare in the trial of John Thurtell in 1823. The witness said, "He was respectable. He kept a gig!" And Mr. Carlyle seized on this to create the term "gigmanity". His viewpoint on history (shown in his study of Frederick the Great) is of the "great man" variety, which would have gelled nicely in the age's zeitgeist alongside the views (when twisted) of the German philosopher Friedrich Nietzche. Jack could have picked up handsomely on those.

[*By the way, something has been overlooked about the wording of the GSG all this time (including by me, so I can't be too sanguine about mentioning it).
It emphasizes "men", which might be a generalizing word (in this case) for both men and women, but can also be an isolating word for males. Why only men?]

Jeff

[Fisherman]

Says the man who 'studies the cultural production of literature' but who has demonstrated that he literally does not know what 'metaphor' means.

All of which makes a nice metaphore for "pretentious". ("Prrretentious? MOI?" - Miss Piggy, The Muppet Show)

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi Mayer
I've always been fascinated with this question. It just blows me away that this story and play was around right before the start of the murders as well as the start of Sherlock Holmes character.

However, very rarely do serial killers allude to specific fictional characters as inspiration, if it at all, so I don't think we will really know.

Yes "Jekyll and Hyde" and Sherlock Holmes plus Van Gogh and Gauguin and Robert Louis Stevenson were all at the time of the Ripper murders, and H. H. Holmes was getting ready to "off" people in this Murder Castle, but what does this all mean???? Sorry. Sheer coincidence, that's all. Although nonetheless, of course, people with wild and crazy theories will continue to put forward their crackpot ideas. Frankly, this is one reason why I don't frequent the forums as much as I used to. I have better things to do than to listen to nonsense.

[Pierre]

QUOTE=Mayerling;405296

[*By the way, something has been overlooked about the wording of the GSG all this time (including by me, so I can't be too sanguine about mentioning it).
It emphasizes "men", which might be a generalizing word (in this case) for both men and women, but can also be an isolating word for males. Why only men?]

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Judges where men exclusively.

Regards, Pierre