R.L.S., H.J., & E.H.: a questions of sources and results

[Henry Flower]

Silly GUT, I can't. I don't know the secret of the power for the motors of the "Nautilus" (Verne and "Nemo's" "Nautilus", not the actual one that is now at Groton's Submarine museum in Connecticut, which I have visited - that's a nuclear powered one). '

The limits to my knowledge of how to power pre-Holland and Lake subs is that of the U.S.S. Turtle (Bushnell's Revolutionary craft), and the C.S.S. Hunley (now found and being restored in Charleston), both of which were powered by men using cranks. Captain Nemo's men had some electricity, but the motors were run by something that wasn't quite explained.

Jeff

Men using cranks? Jeff, my memory suggests that Nemo himself was such a misanthropic crank that this alone was power enough for the Nautilus. It was effectively powered by a crank using men.

[Pierre]

Perhaps, but the enquiry was directed to you. This was not an inquiry into what your central theory is, but just how exactly you ended up acquainted with this play by Tennyson. Telling me won't damage your control over your own work, it just informs me about your reading a bit. That's all.

Jeff

OK, Jeff. As you know, I am a sociologist (not just historian) and one of my interests has been the fields of cultural production. These fields are historically constituated and therefore even a sociologist has to use a long time perspective for studying such fields. This means going back to the ancient Greeks or back to modernity (19th Century) before ending up in our own time or post-modernity. Studying the cultural production of literature some time ago I noticed a review about Queen Mary by Tennyson. Here is the reference:

Reviewed Work: Queen Mary. A Drama by Alfred Tennyson
Review by:
The North American Review
Vol. 121, No. 249 (Oct., 1875), pp. 422-429

Regards, Pierre

[Henry Flower]

OK, Jeff. As you know, I am a sociologist (not just historian) and one of my interests has been the fields of cultural production. These fields are historically constituated and therefore even a sociologist has to use a long time perspective for studying such fields. This means going back to the ancient Greeks or back to modernity (19th Century) before ending up in our own time or post-modernity. Studying the cultural production of literature some time ago I noticed a review about Queen Mary by Tennyson. Here is the reference:

Reviewed Work: Queen Mary. A Drama by Alfred Tennyson
Review by:
The North American Review
Vol. 121, No. 249 (Oct., 1875), pp. 422-429

Regards, Pierre

Surely you mean "just not historian" rather than "not just historian"?

How long did it take for you to find this reference last night Pierre?

Where are "the fields of cultural production"? Which "constituation" can I find them in?

Studying the cultural production of literature some time ago I noticed a review about Queen Mary by Tennyson.

Yeah, that sentence absolutely rings true!

Mrs Pierre: "Darling it's late, come to bed!"
Pierre: "I can't, I'm studying the cultural production of literature right now."

Ten out of ten for your sense of humour Pierre. You're on good form. Literally laugh-a-minute.

[Pierre]

Dogs can be aggressive in guarding everything they consider their possessions, such as food, bowls, items they steal or find, and toys. They are also very territorial and will defend any area they consider to be under their domain.

Symptoms:

Growling
Lifting the upper lip
Aggressive Barking
Snapping
Lunging
Biting
Extreme reaction when someone approaches the dog’s space.

[Henry Flower]

Dogs can be aggressive in guarding everything they consider their possessions, such as food, bowls, items they steal or find, and toys. They are also very territorial and will defend any area they consider to be under their domain.

Symptoms:

Growling
Lifting the upper lip
Aggressive Barking
Snapping
Lunging
Biting
Extreme reaction when someone approaches the dog’s space.

Terrific stuff, Pierre. Unfortunately you missed the fact that the only response you actually provoked from me was ridicule and laughter. You are too comic a figure to inspire aggressive barking on my part.

Good try though.

[Mayerling]

OK, Jeff. As you know, I am a sociologist (not just historian) and one of my interests has been the fields of cultural production. These fields are historically constituated and therefore even a sociologist has to use a long time perspective for studying such fields. This means going back to the ancient Greeks or back to modernity (19th Century) before ending up in our own time or post-modernity. Studying the cultural production of literature some time ago I noticed a review about Queen Mary by Tennyson. Here is the reference:

Reviewed Work: Queen Mary. A Drama by Alfred Tennyson
Review by:
The North American Review
Vol. 121, No. 249 (Oct., 1875), pp. 422-429

Regards, Pierre

Hi Pierre,

I think I can safely credit you found the first reference to the play in that review. It just is too esoteric a citation to pull out of thin air, even after some time researching the web. Thank you then for properly responding this time. Hope your New Years Eve was a fun one.

Jeff

By the way, why is the period we are existing in (c. 2017) considered "Post-modernity". I'd consider the age of computerization and items like the microwave oven in the modern times.

Jeff

[Mayerling]

Men using cranks? Jeff, my memory suggests that Nemo himself was such a misanthropic crank that this alone was power enough for the Nautilus. It was effectively powered by a crank using men.

Hi Henry,

"Captain Nemo" (i.e., Prince Dakkar of India) is misanthropic from family experiences. He was a leader in the Sepoy Revolt, and his wife and children were killed by the British somehow. Hence his naval war - all the ships he attacks (except the "USS Abraham Lincoln") are from the British merchant marine and navy (including an early Cunarder). While it is a violent and murderous response, it's an understandable one. A "crank" response would be to keel-haul crewmen who don't like "Nemo's" home made graham crackers or something of that nature.

Literally the "Turtle" moved by the single occupant turning the screws by hand. And the "Hunley" had a crew of eight sailors turning the crank that propelled the screw in the back. I wish they could find the original "Turtle" (like they did find the "Hunley"), but it appears to have been lost during a retreat in the war. Now the big pre-Holland/Lake sub to try to find is the "USS Allegator" built for the North in 1863, but lost in the Atlantic when being towed to Charleston. It may be off New Jersey or North Carolina - I'm not sure.

Jeff

[David Orsam]

I think I can safely credit you found the first reference to the play in that review. It just is too esoteric a citation to pull out of thin air, even after some time researching the web.

Come on Jeff, it took me all of two minutes to find what Pierre copied and pasted:

http://www.jstor.org/stable/25109947?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

[Mayerling]

Come on Jeff, it took me all of two minutes to find what Pierre copied and pasted:

http://www.jstor.org/stable/25109947...n_tab_contents

Well then David you are better than I would be. If you want he copied it. To me and how I look things up, a cite from a major publication of the 1870s suspiciously on target (meaning like it was used by the user to actually start a research project, not to fool other people. Maybe I seem naïve, but it struck me as being an answer I would have wanted to see.

But feel free to test Pierre on it.

Jeff

[Pierre]

Well then David you are better than I would be. If you want he copied it. To me and how I look things up, a cite from a major publication of the 1870s suspiciously on target (meaning like it was used by the user to actually start a research project, not to fool other people. Maybe I seem naïve, but it struck me as being an answer I would have wanted to see.

But feel free to test Pierre on it.

Jeff

JSTOR is a big database for researchers, Jeff. So I donīt know what problems David has with it. Or rather, hearing myself saying this now, it would be natural for him to misinterpret the existence for it and everything that is in it.

Regards, Pierre

[Mayerling]

I did take the trouble just now of reading the drama review/book review. Actually I was glad to see the unknown author of it did see the serious defects of the play, but he kept insisting he loved other works of Tennyson. I have to agree the love song sung by the dairy maid is rather charming in it's simplicity, but even here my own darker side changed the wording of one line, making the last stanza quite dirty (and certainly dirty for Victorian minds). I am sorry Lord Tennyson never considered doing it - the play might have ended up cited more often, and it might even have survived to this day on stage.

While I recognized characters, and their presentation, I did see one thing missing in the review that leads me to feel that if (as I have suggested) Pierre is telling the truth and this was how he came across the play the first time, it does not mention the gilded coach at all. Pierre would have had to dig deeper to find a mention in the play of the Lord Mayor's procession and the coach. Again (sorry David) it looks like he did tell us the truth this time.

That's my opinion anyway. Now I'm curious about Kenelm Digby's book, "An Introduction to the History of Property Law" which was the subject of the following review. Looked interesting. Ever wonder where "replevin" or "easements" originated in? And was this Digby a descendant of the co-conspirator in the "Gunpowder Plot"?

Jeff

[Mayerling]

JSTOR is a big database for researchers, Jeff. So I donīt know what problems David has with it. Or rather, hearing myself saying this now, it would be natural for him to misinterpret the existence for it and everything that is in it.

Regards, Pierre

Don't worry from my viewpoint here Pierre - just read what I just did reading the cite.

Jeff

[Pierre]

Hi Pierre,

I think I can safely credit you found the first reference to the play in that review. It just is too esoteric a citation to pull out of thin air, even after some time researching the web. Thank you then for properly responding this time. Hope your New Years Eve was a fun one.

Jeff

By the way, why is the period we are existing in (c. 2017) considered "Post-modernity". I'd consider the age of computerization and items like the microwave oven in the modern times.

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Postmodernity is a condition in society rising after modernity, and it is a school of thought criticizing the rational thinking of progress in modernity and the practical implications of that progress. Posmodernity is a risk society where fragmentation and decentration are new paramount features.

Naturally you can also discuss modern / postmodern traits existing as parallel elements in our own time and of course there are always theoretical problems with making ideal types like this.

And within art you have of course modernism and postmodernism as styles, also thought to be part of the respective societies.

Regards, Pierre

[Pierre]

I did take the trouble just now of reading the drama review/book review. Actually I was glad to see the unknown author of it did see the serious defects of the play, but he kept insisting he loved other works of Tennyson. I have to agree the love song sung by the dairy maid is rather charming in it's simplicity, but even here my own darker side changed the wording of one line, making the last stanza quite dirty (and certainly dirty for Victorian minds). I am sorry Lord Tennyson never considered doing it - the play might have ended up cited more often, and it might even have survived to this day on stage.

While I recognized characters, and their presentation, I did see one thing missing in the review that leads me to feel that if (as I have suggested) Pierre is telling the truth and this was how he came across the play the first time, it does not mention the gilded coach at all. Pierre would have had to dig deeper to find a mention in the play of the Lord Mayor's procession and the coach. Again (sorry David) it looks like he did tell us the truth this time.

That's my opinion anyway. Now I'm curious about Kenelm Digby's book, "An Introduction to the History of Property Law" which was the subject of the following review. Looked interesting. Ever wonder where "replevin" or "easements" originated in? And was this Digby a descendant of the co-conspirator in the "Gunpowder Plot"?

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

The coach was mentioned in a letter written by Tennyson, but it was a later reference to the coach, i.e. edited after the murder.

Regards, Pierre

[Mayerling]

Hi Jeff,

Postmodernity is a condition in society rising after modernity, and it is a school of thought criticizing the rational thinking of progress in modernity and the practical implications of that progress. Posmodernity is a risk society where fragmentation and decentration are new paramount features.

Naturally you can also discuss modern / postmodern traits existing as parallel elements in our own time and of course there are always theoretical problems with making ideal types like this.

And within art you have of course modernism and postmodernism as styles, also thought to be part of the respective societies.

Regards, Pierre

Thanks Pierre for explaining it. Did this theory on Postmodernity arise in the 1950s or earlier? The reason I ask was that your description happened to remind me of the gist (towards the end of the book) of Walter Lord's account of the "Titanic" disaster, "A Night to Remember". He pointed out that (according to him, or course) the ship labelled "unsinkable" was supposed to be the most promising example of the marriage of science and progress in society in 1912, and it's destruction with heavy loss of life was a thunderbolt to the public, shaking confidence in the progress of science for society. This would be enhanced (tragically) in two years by the start of the Great War, and society after 1918 is certainly far more fragmented around the globe than it was in say 1900 or even 1912.

Lord wrote "A Night to Remember" in 1955. That's why I wondered about the dating of the start of this theory.

Jeff