R.L.S., H.J., & E.H.: a questions of sources and results

[DJA]

Well, anyway...

Shall we now get back to the issues regarding Stevenson and Jekyll and Hyde and this thread?

Jeff

Let's pretend Dr J and Mr Hyde were real people and keep in mind RLS's health,medication and the libel laws.

Dr J was a wealthy MD worth ~ 250,000 pounds.
Mr H seems to be his protege and not an MD.

Dr J is large, Mr H is small.

Dr J lives in a wealthy Square and Mr H in "that square in Soho".

Reckon the time frame of the novella stretches from events ~ 1868 to 1885.

Who do we think Dr J might be?

Those who already know can keep quiet

Hint. Mr H not only had access to Dr J's backyard,he actually lived next door.

Many of the facts have been switched and there are several hidden clues.

Sir Danvers Carew,MP actually died,by memory, in June 1885 and not by Mr H's direct hand.
The names are clues. Someone here has been working on a book about the Prayer Book Rebellion

The Labouchere Amendment,August 1885 was sometimes referred to as the blackmailer's charter.

[Abby Normal]

Well Dave, it is the New Year. Let's try to be a little forbearing here - after all my own ideas can be totally wrong too.

Forgetting Pierre for the moment, what do you think of the possibility of some kind of influence by reading or (if seeing the play with Mansfield in it) on the killer?

Jeff

Hi Mayer
I've always been fascinated with this question. It just blows me away that this story and play was around right before the start of the murders as well as the start of Sherlock Holmes character.

However, very rarely do serial killers allude to specific fictional characters as inspiration, if it at all, so I don't think we will really know.

[Mayerling]

You keep giving this guy way too much credit Jeff. He didn't know anything about the procession and/or coach being mentioned in the play.

This is all he ever said about the connection between the play and the Gogmagog letter:

"Lord Tennyson...wrote a drama called Queen Mary. In this drama there is Queen Mary, Queen Elizabeth and the Lord Mayor."

That was it. Only the fact that the Lord Mayor is a character in the play has ever been mentioned by Pierre. Nothing about the procession.

As for the coach, that link was from a totally different document. Tennyson mentioned the grand gilt coach in a private 1861 letter to his wife that wasn't published until after his death (and after the JTR murders). Gogmagog mentioned the "the grand old gilt coach" in his letter and this was Pierre's famous Tennyson link with the coach (even though Gogmagog couldn't have seen Tennyson's letter), nothing to do with the play.

Occasionally we might. Well, anyway...

Shall we now get back to the issues regarding Stevenson and Jeckyll and Hyde and this thread?

Jeff

[David Orsam]

Pierre would have had to dig deeper to find a mention in the play of the Lord Mayor's procession and the coach. Again (sorry David) it looks like he did tell us the truth this time.

You keep giving this guy way too much credit Jeff. He didn't know anything about the procession and/or coach being mentioned in the play.

This is all he ever said about the connection between the play and the Gogmagog letter:

"Lord Tennyson...wrote a drama called Queen Mary. In this drama there is Queen Mary, Queen Elizabeth and the Lord Mayor."

That was it. Only the fact that the Lord Mayor is a character in the play has ever been mentioned by Pierre. Nothing about the procession.

As for the coach, that link was from a totally different document. Tennyson mentioned the grand gilt coach in a private 1861 letter to his wife that wasn't published until after his death (and after the JTR murders). Gogmagog mentioned the "the grand old gilt coach" in his letter and this was Pierre's famous Tennyson link with the coach (even though Gogmagog couldn't have seen Tennyson's letter), nothing to do with the play.

[Pierre]

Thanks Pierre for explaining it. Did this theory on Postmodernity arise in the 1950s or earlier? The reason I ask was that your description happened to remind me of the gist (towards the end of the book) of Walter Lord's account of the "Titanic" disaster, "A Night to Remember". He pointed out that (according to him, or course) the ship labelled "unsinkable" was supposed to be the most promising example of the marriage of science and progress in society in 1912, and it's destruction with heavy loss of life was a thunderbolt to the public, shaking confidence in the progress of science for society. This would be enhanced (tragically) in two years by the start of the Great War, and society after 1918 is certainly far more fragmented around the globe than it was in say 1900 or even 1912.

Lord wrote "A Night to Remember" in 1955. That's why I wondered about the dating of the start of this theory.

Jeff

Postmodernism is a rather early concept, postmodernity is a later concept.

But this is off topic, now.

Kind regards, Pierre

[Mayerling]

Hi Jeff,

Postmodernity is a condition in society rising after modernity, and it is a school of thought criticizing the rational thinking of progress in modernity and the practical implications of that progress. Posmodernity is a risk society where fragmentation and decentration are new paramount features.

Naturally you can also discuss modern / postmodern traits existing as parallel elements in our own time and of course there are always theoretical problems with making ideal types like this.

And within art you have of course modernism and postmodernism as styles, also thought to be part of the respective societies.

Regards, Pierre

Thanks Pierre for explaining it. Did this theory on Postmodernity arise in the 1950s or earlier? The reason I ask was that your description happened to remind me of the gist (towards the end of the book) of Walter Lord's account of the "Titanic" disaster, "A Night to Remember". He pointed out that (according to him, or course) the ship labelled "unsinkable" was supposed to be the most promising example of the marriage of science and progress in society in 1912, and it's destruction with heavy loss of life was a thunderbolt to the public, shaking confidence in the progress of science for society. This would be enhanced (tragically) in two years by the start of the Great War, and society after 1918 is certainly far more fragmented around the globe than it was in say 1900 or even 1912.

Lord wrote "A Night to Remember" in 1955. That's why I wondered about the dating of the start of this theory.

Jeff

[Pierre]

I did take the trouble just now of reading the drama review/book review. Actually I was glad to see the unknown author of it did see the serious defects of the play, but he kept insisting he loved other works of Tennyson. I have to agree the love song sung by the dairy maid is rather charming in it's simplicity, but even here my own darker side changed the wording of one line, making the last stanza quite dirty (and certainly dirty for Victorian minds). I am sorry Lord Tennyson never considered doing it - the play might have ended up cited more often, and it might even have survived to this day on stage.

While I recognized characters, and their presentation, I did see one thing missing in the review that leads me to feel that if (as I have suggested) Pierre is telling the truth and this was how he came across the play the first time, it does not mention the gilded coach at all. Pierre would have had to dig deeper to find a mention in the play of the Lord Mayor's procession and the coach. Again (sorry David) it looks like he did tell us the truth this time.

That's my opinion anyway. Now I'm curious about Kenelm Digby's book, "An Introduction to the History of Property Law" which was the subject of the following review. Looked interesting. Ever wonder where "replevin" or "easements" originated in? And was this Digby a descendant of the co-conspirator in the "Gunpowder Plot"?

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

The coach was mentioned in a letter written by Tennyson, but it was a later reference to the coach, i.e. edited after the murder.

Regards, Pierre

[Pierre]

Hi Pierre,

I think I can safely credit you found the first reference to the play in that review. It just is too esoteric a citation to pull out of thin air, even after some time researching the web. Thank you then for properly responding this time. Hope your New Years Eve was a fun one.

Jeff

By the way, why is the period we are existing in (c. 2017) considered "Post-modernity". I'd consider the age of computerization and items like the microwave oven in the modern times.

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Postmodernity is a condition in society rising after modernity, and it is a school of thought criticizing the rational thinking of progress in modernity and the practical implications of that progress. Posmodernity is a risk society where fragmentation and decentration are new paramount features.

Naturally you can also discuss modern / postmodern traits existing as parallel elements in our own time and of course there are always theoretical problems with making ideal types like this.

And within art you have of course modernism and postmodernism as styles, also thought to be part of the respective societies.

Regards, Pierre

[Mayerling]

JSTOR is a big database for researchers, Jeff. So I donīt know what problems David has with it. Or rather, hearing myself saying this now, it would be natural for him to misinterpret the existence for it and everything that is in it.

Regards, Pierre

Don't worry from my viewpoint here Pierre - just read what I just did reading the cite.

Jeff

[Mayerling]

I did take the trouble just now of reading the drama review/book review. Actually I was glad to see the unknown author of it did see the serious defects of the play, but he kept insisting he loved other works of Tennyson. I have to agree the love song sung by the dairy maid is rather charming in it's simplicity, but even here my own darker side changed the wording of one line, making the last stanza quite dirty (and certainly dirty for Victorian minds). I am sorry Lord Tennyson never considered doing it - the play might have ended up cited more often, and it might even have survived to this day on stage.

While I recognized characters, and their presentation, I did see one thing missing in the review that leads me to feel that if (as I have suggested) Pierre is telling the truth and this was how he came across the play the first time, it does not mention the gilded coach at all. Pierre would have had to dig deeper to find a mention in the play of the Lord Mayor's procession and the coach. Again (sorry David) it looks like he did tell us the truth this time.

That's my opinion anyway. Now I'm curious about Kenelm Digby's book, "An Introduction to the History of Property Law" which was the subject of the following review. Looked interesting. Ever wonder where "replevin" or "easements" originated in? And was this Digby a descendant of the co-conspirator in the "Gunpowder Plot"?

Jeff

[Pierre]

Well then David you are better than I would be. If you want he copied it. To me and how I look things up, a cite from a major publication of the 1870s suspiciously on target (meaning like it was used by the user to actually start a research project, not to fool other people. Maybe I seem naïve, but it struck me as being an answer I would have wanted to see.

But feel free to test Pierre on it.

Jeff

JSTOR is a big database for researchers, Jeff. So I donīt know what problems David has with it. Or rather, hearing myself saying this now, it would be natural for him to misinterpret the existence for it and everything that is in it.

Regards, Pierre

[Mayerling]

Come on Jeff, it took me all of two minutes to find what Pierre copied and pasted:

http://www.jstor.org/stable/25109947...n_tab_contents

Well then David you are better than I would be. If you want he copied it. To me and how I look things up, a cite from a major publication of the 1870s suspiciously on target (meaning like it was used by the user to actually start a research project, not to fool other people. Maybe I seem naïve, but it struck me as being an answer I would have wanted to see.

But feel free to test Pierre on it.

Jeff

[David Orsam]

I think I can safely credit you found the first reference to the play in that review. It just is too esoteric a citation to pull out of thin air, even after some time researching the web.

Come on Jeff, it took me all of two minutes to find what Pierre copied and pasted:

http://www.jstor.org/stable/25109947?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

[Mayerling]

Men using cranks? Jeff, my memory suggests that Nemo himself was such a misanthropic crank that this alone was power enough for the Nautilus. It was effectively powered by a crank using men.

Hi Henry,

"Captain Nemo" (i.e., Prince Dakkar of India) is misanthropic from family experiences. He was a leader in the Sepoy Revolt, and his wife and children were killed by the British somehow. Hence his naval war - all the ships he attacks (except the "USS Abraham Lincoln") are from the British merchant marine and navy (including an early Cunarder). While it is a violent and murderous response, it's an understandable one. A "crank" response would be to keel-haul crewmen who don't like "Nemo's" home made graham crackers or something of that nature.

Literally the "Turtle" moved by the single occupant turning the screws by hand. And the "Hunley" had a crew of eight sailors turning the crank that propelled the screw in the back. I wish they could find the original "Turtle" (like they did find the "Hunley"), but it appears to have been lost during a retreat in the war. Now the big pre-Holland/Lake sub to try to find is the "USS Allegator" built for the North in 1863, but lost in the Atlantic when being towed to Charleston. It may be off New Jersey or North Carolina - I'm not sure.

Jeff

[Mayerling]

OK, Jeff. As you know, I am a sociologist (not just historian) and one of my interests has been the fields of cultural production. These fields are historically constituated and therefore even a sociologist has to use a long time perspective for studying such fields. This means going back to the ancient Greeks or back to modernity (19th Century) before ending up in our own time or post-modernity. Studying the cultural production of literature some time ago I noticed a review about Queen Mary by Tennyson. Here is the reference:

Reviewed Work: Queen Mary. A Drama by Alfred Tennyson
Review by:
The North American Review
Vol. 121, No. 249 (Oct., 1875), pp. 422-429

Regards, Pierre

Hi Pierre,

I think I can safely credit you found the first reference to the play in that review. It just is too esoteric a citation to pull out of thin air, even after some time researching the web. Thank you then for properly responding this time. Hope your New Years Eve was a fun one.

Jeff

By the way, why is the period we are existing in (c. 2017) considered "Post-modernity". I'd consider the age of computerization and items like the microwave oven in the modern times.

Jeff