Nazi Germany

[Graham]

Well, they had The Triumph of the Will and the cathedral of ice. We had George Formby.

My old man used to reckon that if on the morning of 4th September 1939 we'd dropped George Formby, Gracie Fields and Arthur Askey on Berlin, Hitler would've surrendered by tea-time.

Graham

[Mayerling]

Hi Jeff

I thought that the Italians were never anywhere near as anti-semitic as the Germans, and only took anti-semitic measures late in the day. Didn't Jews use Italy as an escape route?

Unlike National Socialism in Germany, Italian Fascism welcomed Jewish supporters. The Jews accepted it because they had found the 19th Century Risorgimiento had freed many Jews from Ghettos (especially in the Papal states) and from restrictions, and the Fascists claimed they were following up in the footsteps of Mazzini, Cavour, and Garibaldi (not really, of course).

It worked for most of the Fascist period. Mussolini's first mistress was Jewish. But he himself was anti-Semitic, as were some of his advisors, and when relations with Germany led to the alliance he started installing Italian versions of the "Nuremburg Laws". Ironically, Hitler truly admired Mussolini, but had little friendly feelings for the Italian people, and used Italian troops in Russia (at Stalingrad) as cannon fodder. When Mussolini was overthrown in 1943 (and briefly a prisoner until rescued by Skorzeny) Hitler had no troubled thoughts about ordering reprisals against Italians.

Jeff

[Errata]

Hi Jeff

I thought that the Italians were never anywhere near as anti-semitic as the Germans, and only took anti-semitic measures late in the day. Didn't Jews use Italy as an escape route?

Before the war (including back in Victorian times) the vast majority of Jews fleeing were Eastern European. They got out either somewhere on the Black Sea or Yugoslavia if they were going to France, New York, or Galveston Texas (odd choice I know). The hit the Baltic Sea if they were going to England.

In the rush to get out ahead of the Nazi's the same routes were used, except some people went as far as Greece instead of Yugoslavia, the Netherlands and at least for a while France was added as a destination at first, and then a funneling point to get them to England, the US, Canada, etc. And of course Palestine was added as a destination, and even some persistent Eastern Europeans walked there.

Italy was never really used. Trains weren't safe pre war, and the only way to get down through Italy was by rail. Add to that there was never a significant Jewish population in Italy. They had been expelled a few time in the course of Italian History, and being the seat of the Catholic church and in many ways obeying church laws, Jews were not particularly interested in living there on the whole. Italians didn't have to be as anti semitic as Germany, because they had been anti semitic enough 400 years earlier that they didn't run into Jews on a daily basis. Also by most Jews hit a port before arriving at an Italian port, and on boats they were safe. So the goal was to get to the closest boat, not the port closest to their destination. For a Russian Jew boat to the US from Varna was better than a boat to the US from Naples, even though Naples was a bigger port and closer to their destination. Worst case scenario, even transferring boats in an Italian port could be done in secret, and was safer than traveling through Italy.

And even post war, France and Greece were used as the distribution points for camp survivors and the few who returned.

[Robert]

Hi Jeff and Errata

Thanks for that.

I believe that after the Italians changed sides, some Germans put them to the top of their hate list, above Jews.

It's odd that both Hitler and Churchill had a high regard for Mussolini. But the Germans didn't think much of the Italians in general. I remember reading that German envoys to Italy in the 30s had to be given special instructions not to make jokes about Italian martial valour, because it caused genuine offence in their hosts.

[Robert]

Hi Graham

Gracie Fields could have done it on her own. Formby and Askey looks like gratuitous cruelty.

I don't mind Formby and Askey particularly, but they seem to me to epitomise the image of the British idiot who triumphs by sheer good luck and good intentions. Will Hay was in a different league - an idiot, but a cunning idiot and a trifle unscrupulous to boot.

[Archaic]

I remember reading that German envoys to Italy in the 30s had to be given special instructions not to make jokes about Italian martial valour, because it caused genuine offence in their hosts.

"WWII Italian Army Rifles for Sale: Never Fired, and Only Dropped Once."

Some of those jokes are still around.

Cheers,
Archaic

[dahler101]

Hi Jeff

I thought that the Italians were never anywhere near as anti-semitic as the Germans, and only took anti-semitic measures late in the day. Didn't Jews use Italy as an escape route?

Even though prior to Hitler gaining Power in 1933, only the government was worried about his anti-semitic overtures, the Jewish people were largely unconcerned about Hitler, some even applauded him for a "job well done." While he ranted and raved about "the Jewish question" few actually believed that he would truly act on his beliefs. By the events of Krystallnacht (translated night of broken glass) in November 1938 the Jewish people had long since changed their opinion on the Nazi regime.

Those who could fled the country, but had to give up over 90% of their wealth and belongings to state, and they happily did it. Sadly those who could not stayed in Germany, most were to die. In addition of those who were able to flee were unable to obtain foreign visa's, only 3% were able to obtain visa's (I could be off on the numbers but I believe this is accurate) the rest were returned to Germany to meet their fate. Again many of them would not survive.

It did however take some time before the idea of simply killing them off took shape, Hitler and his inner circle first considered the idea of deportation to countries like Madagascar, but as Hitler began to lose the war and battles (beginning with Russia) he began to take out his anger and frustrations on the Jewish people and thus the holocaust began. However there was a Jewish uprising in the Warsaw getto, where Jewish troops were able to hold back the Germans for nearly a month, unfortunately the Germans were able to quash the rebellion and as punishment had the getto leveled to the ground.

[Graham]

Hi Graham

Gracie Fields could have done it on her own. Formby and Askey looks like gratuitous cruelty.

I don't mind Formby and Askey particularly, but they seem to me to epitomise the image of the British idiot who triumphs by sheer good luck and good intentions. Will Hay was in a different league - an idiot, but a cunning idiot and a trifle unscrupulous to boot.

I know his stuff has to be taken with a fairly large pinch of salt, but if you want to know what Gracie Fields was like, read Spike Milligan's "army memoir" books.

As a guitarist, my main argument with Formby is the current fad for bloody ukelele orchestras. Painful or what?

But seriously, folks, just about the first anti-Jewish pogrom in Europe took place in 1190 at York, England, when about 200 Jews were locked up in Clifford's Tower which was then set alight. Not until Oliver Cromwell was main man were Jews allowed complete freedom in this country.

Graham

[Graham]

"WWII Italian Army Rifles for Sale: Never Fired, and Only Dropped Once."

Some of those jokes are still around.

Cheers,
Archaic

For Sale: Italian Tanks. One forward and 32 reverse gears.

Graham

[Mayerling]

Even though prior to Hitler gaining Power in 1933, only the government was worried about his anti-semitic overtures, the Jewish people were largely unconcerned about Hitler, some even applauded him for a "job well done." While he ranted and raved about "the Jewish question" few actually believed that he would truly act on his beliefs. By the events of Krystallnacht (translated night of broken glass) in November 1938 the Jewish people had long since changed their opinion on the Nazi regime.

Those who could fled the country, but had to give up over 90% of their wealth and belongings to state, and they happily did it. Sadly those who could not stayed in Germany, most were to die. In addition of those who were able to flee were unable to obtain foreign visa's, only 3% were able to obtain visa's (I could be off on the numbers but I believe this is accurate) the rest were returned to Germany to meet their fate. Again many of them would not survive.

It did however take some time before the idea of simply killing them off took shape, Hitler and his inner circle first considered the idea of deportation to countries like Madagascar, but as Hitler began to lose the war and battles (beginning with Russia) he began to take out his anger and frustrations on the Jewish people and thus the holocaust began. However there was a Jewish uprising in the Warsaw getto, where Jewish troops were able to hold back the Germans for nearly a month, unfortunately the Germans were able to quash the rebellion and as punishment had the getto leveled to the ground.

Sorry Dahler, you are just slightly off on two points:

1) It was the antics of the Nazi goons on Krystalnacht in 1938 that showed what they planned to do - the total destruction of the German Jewish community in the wake of the assassination of a Nazi diplomat by a Jewish young man named Grynspan. Ironically Von Rath, the victim, actually was personally anti-Nazi. Kaiser Wilhelm II was still alive in Doorn, the Netherlands in 1938. Personally he had shown an antipathy to Jews as a whole while he reigned in Germany (wealthy Jews were an exception). But on this occasion Wilhelm said, "Today I am ashamed that I am German!"

2) The notoriously evil "Waldsee" conference chaired by Reinhard Heydrich in 1941 was held while the Nazis were winning, and set the agenda for the "Final Solution."

Jeff

[GUT]

"WWII Italian Army Rifles for Sale: Never Fired, and Only Dropped Once."

Some of those jokes are still around.

Cheers,
Archaic

For Sale: Italian Tanks. One forward and 32 reverse gears.

Graham

Or the World's shortest book, "Italian War Heroes".

[Mayerling]

I know his stuff has to be taken with a fairly large pinch of salt, but if you want to know what Gracie Fields was like, read Spike Milligan's "army memoir" books.

As a guitarist, my main argument with Formby is the current fad for bloody ukelele orchestras. Painful or what?

But seriously, folks, just about the first anti-Jewish pogrom in Europe took place in 1190 at York, England, when about 200 Jews were locked up in Clifford's Tower which was then set alight. Not until Oliver Cromwell was main man were Jews allowed complete freedom in this country.

Graham

Hi Graham,

Honestly I don't mind Formby (I've watched him on You Tube) or Gracie Fields (though I never took a harp to a party - nor a ukulele either for that matter). My favorite is Will Hay with or without his two trustee partners Moffatt and Marriott. Watch the snippet on You Tube from "Go To Blazes" about the firemen concerning the idiotic way they try to reinstall a fire pole in the fire department building they are in, which ties up a street and involves about three or four dozen men - all of whom louse up!!

Cromwell's record with the Jews is a good one, though it was based on a belief that the Jews had to be in all the countries in the world before the second coming of Christ. It is hard for me to explain to Irish people how such a monster as Oliver (to them) is actually slightly okay with us. What I like is that Charles II decided to allow the readmission of the Jews to continue when he was restored.

The Jews were thrown out of England by law in 1290 by Edward I "Longshanks". He is the villain played so well in "Braveheart" by Patrick McGoohan. Interestingly, although William Wallace and the Scots were enemies of Edward I too, nothing in that film by Mel Gibson touches on that part of the King's reign. I wonder why...?

In the wake of the 1912 Marconi Scandal in England, Hillaire Belloc advocated the restoration of the 1290 act of Edward I. Belloc was the brother of Mrs. Belloc Lowndes of "The Lodger" fame.

Jeff

[Errata]

Sorry Dahler, you are just slightly off on two points:

1) It was the antics of the Nazi goons on Krystalnacht in 1938 that showed what they planned to do - the total destruction of the German Jewish community in the wake of the assassination of a Nazi diplomat by a Jewish young man named Grynspan. Ironically Von Rath, the victim, actually was personally anti-Nazi. Kaiser Wilhelm II was still alive in Doorn, the Netherlands in 1938. Personally he had shown an antipathy to Jews as a whole while he reigned in Germany (wealthy Jews were an exception). But on this occasion Wilhelm said, "Today I am ashamed that I am German!"

2) The notoriously evil "Waldsee" conference chaired by Reinhard Heydrich in 1941 was held while the Nazis were winning, and set the agenda for the "Final Solution."

Jeff

Herschel Grynszpan was an interesting guy. The guy was incredibly high strung, prone to feeling persecuted (not just because he was in fact persecuted), took everything super personally... The kind of guy you look at and say "of COURSE he shot a German diplomat".

[Mayerling]

Hi Jeff and Errata

Thanks for that.

I believe that after the Italians changed sides, some Germans put them to the top of their hate list, above Jews.

It's odd that both Hitler and Churchill had a high regard for Mussolini. But the Germans didn't think much of the Italians in general. I remember reading that German envoys to Italy in the 30s had to be given special instructions not to make jokes about Italian martial valour, because it caused genuine offence in their hosts.

Hi Robert,

Italy, among the great powers of Europe, was looked at as colorful and romantic and little else even before World War I. It's unification was aided by Napoleon III's France (which is why Nice and the surrounding area was "given to France" by secret agreement as payment for Napoleon's support -- the actions of Mussolini in 1940 in the "stab in the back" that FDR sneered at actually had a small amount of merit had it ever been sent to an arbitration council). Italy was a democracy, and the people got along (for the most part), but it was ramshackled because it had been split apart for so many centuries. Garibaldi tried to settle unification in 1860, but was restrained at the demand of the French Emperor because Garibaldi tried to seize the papal states, and Catholic France could not accept this. Napoleon III had to placate the French Catholics this way. In 1866 Italy allied with Bismarck against Austria-Hungary. Although they won in the Seven Week War (due to Prussian victories up to Koenigsgratz) Italy (seeking Venezia) lost the naval battle of Lissa, in which the Austrians rammed and sank the Italian flagship. In 1870, taking advantage of the Franco-Prussian War, Italy allowed Garibaldi to grab the Papal States in Central Italy. He did, and the Pope declared his infallibility soon afterwards. The Vatican and Italy's Governments would be at loggerheads until 1929 when Mussolini and the Vatican signed a Concordat establishing governmental and diplomatic bounderies between Italy and the Vatican City.

In terms of imperialism Italy was just as much a sad-sack, suffering a humiliating defeat from Abyssinia/Ethiopia in 1896 at the defeat at Adowa. This would mean as much today the 1879 defeat of the British at Isandhlwana by the Zulus, but the British eventually defeated the Zulu nation. Italy had to wait until 1935 to claim such a victory over Ethiopia. Rumors also suggested that Menelik, the Emperor of Abyssinia, to bring home the nature of Italian defeat, castrated many of the captured Italian troops. If this was so it did not help Italy's image at all.

The Italian democracy was quite unstable and corrupt. In World War I it was supposed to be allied to Germany and Austria Hungary, but it felt that it's legitimate aims were stymied by this. So it began seeing which side would give it the best offer. Italy was out of the war for the first year. Then it was bribed into supporting the Allies. It suffered huge losses from 1915-1917 (in 1917 it looked like it would be knocked out of the war). But it did better in 1918. They were with the American, British, and French at the Versailles signing.

But they did not get what they wanted. At one point they left the Paris Conference, and stayed away for two months or so. When Japan had done the same thing a couple of months earlier the main allies begged them to return - even placated them at the expense of China. This did not happen now. Italy returned to the conference on it's own volition, humiliated by how it was treated. It got a handful of territorial "crumbs".

This is the type of situation European statesman and people viewed Italy as like in 1922, when Mussolini marched on Rome. He was so direct and purposeful that he seemed like a breath of fresh air. The Italians now seemed to have someone who knew how to get things done (hence the now ridiculous statement, "Mussolini made the trains run on time"). A blind eye was turned from his crimes, like the murder of the Socialist Matteotti in 1924. Hitler and Churchill were naturally impressed. So was George Bernard Shaw, but he was also impressed by Stalin and Hitler, and put them and Mussolini in a 1935 play called "Geneva' suggesting that their so-called evil was necessary. Needless to say "Geneva" is not revivable today.

Jeff

[Robert]

Hi Jeff

Yes, economically Italy was second-rate. When Hitler invoked the Pact of Steel and asked Mussolini how long it would take him to be ready for war, Mussolini had to give Hitler a long wish list of material requirements, and he had to make sure that the requirements were beyond Germany's capacity to supply.

I think the entry into the war was personal as well as political. How galling to see his pupil upstaging him so spectacularly.