Nazi Germany

[dahler101]

Seeing how this is a site about a serial killer and an earlier thread was posted regarding an ex Auschwitz guard, I would to mention a section of Peter Vronsky's book "Female Serial Killers." If you havn't read it highly recommend it it is a fascinating read.

The section that I speak of makes mention of Nazi Germany and the concept of state bred serial killers, and how Nazi ideology essentially brainwashed people into being serial killers.

Two interesting case study's are Ilsa Koch (the bitch of buchewald) who was camp commandant's wife who had the shrunken heads and tattooed skin lampshades, which seemed to inspire future serial killer ED Gein.

And Irma Grese (the beast of Belsen) who was reported to be so cruel and consistent with her torture that she made other SS guards thought that her treatment of the prisoners was too excessive, and they were reported to even be afraid of her.

[sdreid]

I believe Grese was also known as the "Beautiful Beast". She was executed along with 21 other women who were connected with the camps; some who were as bad or worse. Koch was not executed. I think Grese was hanged by Pierrepoint and, at 22, was the youngest woman hanged in the 20th Century under British jurisdiction.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

I believe Grese was also known as the "Beautiful Beast".

hmm...

[ajcol]

hmm...

'nuff said!

[Mayerling]

Edgar Lustgarten wrote a chapter on Irma Grese in his book "The Business of Murder", where he also deals with Landru, Christie, Haigh, Heath, and Peter Manuel, so he would have agreed about the connection of state sponsored mass murder breeding serial killers. Grese died totally unrepentant.

I discovered some time back that Fritz Haarman's lover, partner, and chief witness against him, Hans Grans, lived into the Hitler era and worked in one of the death camps. It did attract the "right" people.

Interestingly, if we consider collaborators, in France the behavior of Dr. Marcel Petiot did raise some concerns by the Gestapo, but when one of their own (sent to investigate) "disappeared" they figured Petiot just helped him leave France. They did not bother Petiot because his victims were mostly Jews trying to flee Vichy France and the Nazis.

Jeff

[sdreid]

I think Petiot played which either side he thought gave him the advantage.

Interesting that fashion icon Coco Chanel, who was almost certainly a collaborator, was sort of given a pass. Although not proven collaborators, you also had individuals like actor Maurice Chevalier, singer Edith Piaf and filmmaker Jean Cocteau, who were seen as being friendlier with their Nazi occupiers than they would have to have been, who were also pretty much forgiven.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

I think Petiot played which either side he thought gave him the advantage.

Interesting that fashion icon Coco Chanel, who was almost certainly a collaborator, was sort of given a pass. Although not proven collaborators, you also had individuals like actor Maurice Chevalier, singer Edith Piaf and filmmaker Jean Cocteau, who were seen as being friendlier with their Nazi occupiers than they would have to have been, who were also pretty much forgiven.

but prostitutes who slept with German soldiers got their head shaved to shame them after the libération.

[Sam Flynn]

but prostitutes who slept with German soldiers got their head shaved to shame them after the libération.

...and those who slept with German officers got their armpits shaved. That was the ultimate humiliation

[sdreid]

Chanel reportedly had a German officer as a lover. She was about 60 years old but still quite attractive.

[Mayerling]

Reputedly Chevalier was cleared after the war because he had used his entertainment value to please the Nazis, while helping Jewish friends escape being sent to death camps.

Chanel, by the way, was known to go into hysterical anti-Semitic tirades.

If you check the photographs in his memoirs, "Inside the Third Reich" Albert Speer included one of his wife in Paris at a dinner party chatting amicably with the noted concert pianist Alfred Cortot.

The Vichy Government (during the war) gave protection to Gertrude Stein and Alice B. Toklas (both being Americans, and Stein being Jewish as well) due to their cultural value regarding Stein's "salon". Similarly Mussolini's government protected the art critic/historian Bernard Berenson (an Englishman of Jewish ancestry) because of his knowledge of the Renaissance art of Italy (especially Venice).

Jeff

[Robert]

Hi Jeff

I thought that the Italians were never anywhere near as anti-semitic as the Germans, and only took anti-semitic measures late in the day. Didn't Jews use Italy as an escape route?

[Graham]

I believe Grese was also known as the "Beautiful Beast". She was executed along with 21 other women who were connected with the camps; some who were as bad or worse. Koch was not executed. I think Grese was hanged by Pierrepoint and, at 22, was the youngest woman hanged in the 20th Century under British jurisdiction.

What a doll! She is I believe one of the very few of Pierrepoint's "customers" about whom he made any comment - although he didn't say so in so many words, he gained a grim satisfaction in seeing her off.

I had the dubious pleasure of working in Germany in the 1970's, when memories of WW2 were still strong. The younger, post-war Germans, similar age to me, were fine, but some who remembered the War were openly gloating about how because of the German "Economic Miracle" the real loser was Great Britain. I also don't recall talking to any older German who condemned the Holocaust out of hand; in fact, one man I worked with claimed he didn't even know about it until told so by the Allies. Another not uncommon theme was that the greatest War Crime of the lot was the carpet bombing of Germany by the British and Americans.

What concerns me, given all the current goings-on in the Middle East, is that it could happen again, only this time the perpetrators won't be European Fascists and the victims won't necessarily be Jewish.

Graham

[Robert]

Hi Graham

Did you see any signs of a 'stab in the back' excuse similar to WW1 but with different scapegoats? Hitler betrayed by Goering...Hitler betrayed by Italians and Japanese....Hitler betrayed by his doctors....that sort of thing?

[Graham]

Hi Graham

Did you see any signs of a 'stab in the back' excuse similar to WW1 but with different scapegoats? Hitler betrayed by Goering...Hitler betrayed by Italians and Japanese....Hitler betrayed by his doctors....that sort of thing?

Hi Robert,

I think the WW1 "stab in the back" complex was purely from the German military, who thought their forces were still functioning sufficiently well to clobber the Allies. However, the German government and populace thought differently - they'd had enough - and pulled support from the military. Who, if I remember my history correctly, never forgot it.

I don't recall that attitude amongst older people in the Germany of the 1970's. Kind of get the impression that the military knew and accepted that the game was up long before the government, i.e., Hitler, while their country was being hammered flat. It would be totally wrong for me to say that I met some Germans who were actually nostalgic for the war, but I will say that I never heard a huge amount of criticism of the Nazi leadership. Even today, old newsreels of torch-lit Nuremburg rallies still have the ability to thrill.......

Graham

[Robert]

Well, they had The Triumph of the Will and the cathedral of ice. We had George Formby.