Brazil's Humiliating Defeat

[DVV]

Ok, thanks. Indeed, that's what went on.
Marvelous !

[Steadmund Brand]

Point of fact, Hearns broke his hand in the 1st round of the Hagler fight (I'm not making any excuses, I think Hagler would have beaten Hearns anyway, and I agree 9 out of 10 times (possibly 10 out of 10) but just imagine if Hearns was still able to hit him in the 2nd and 3rd like he did in the first!!!. I would agree that Hagler is arguably the best Middleweight ever (then again, Sugar Ray Robinson and even Bernard Hopkins may have something to say about that )

As for the best puncher, as a heavyweight I would say Ernie Shavers (so would anyone who ever faced him as well, including Ali, Holmes etc.) Foreman was a great puncher, as was Tyson, and Dempsey, but Shavers was just something else (problem was if you could get thru the 1st 3 or 4 rounds he was done).

The reason I used Hears-Duran as an example, yes Duran was "past his prime" and at a much higher weight, but he was always so tough and durable, and too see him just get totally blown away like that...was wow... Another example could have been the George Foreman vs. Joe Frazier fights.... again, yes Foreman was a monster puncher, but, Frazier was just such a hard man and to see him just destroyed... was something else.

Steadmund Brand--

[Robert]

A lot of it is the style. A beats B, B beats C, C beats A.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Point of fact, Hearns broke his hand in the 1st round of the Hagler fight (I'm not making any excuses, I think Hagler would have beaten Hearns anyway, and I agree 9 out of 10 times (possibly 10 out of 10) but just imagine if Hearns was still able to hit him in the 2nd and 3rd like he did in the first!!!. I would agree that Hagler is arguably the best Middleweight ever (then again, Sugar Ray Robinson and even Bernard Hopkins may have something to say about that )

Hopkins was a top class fighter, as was Roy Jones Jr. Personally, I would put Jones ahead of Hopkins when both in their prime. Jones was finished by the time he was 30 by going up a weight and coming down a weight, but he was red hot in his prime.

Still, Joe Calzaghe beat both of them. Admittedly Jones and Hopkins were past their best but so was Joe. They all avoided him for years because they knew how dangerous he was. That lad could box, some called him a slapper but he could bang very hard for a supposed slapper.

The only shame for Joe is that we'll never truly know how good he was because he didn't fight the Yanks when at their best, but Joe was the sort of fighter who raised his game when needed and I always felt he had another couple of gears in him.

Jeff Lacy was supposed to be the next big thing in American boxing and Joe destroyed him with Lacy not winning a single round. Joe had pretty much everything: could hit hard, solid chin, lightening fast hands, good defence, started the 12th round like he started the 1st. One of British boxing's greatest regrets that he never got to prove just how good he was.

Either way, I wouldn't have fancied Joe's chances against Hagler.

[jason_c]

And herein lies the issue. The traditional rules for the modern game known as football were devised in Britain, in the private schools of England. The game with these rules was and always has been called football.

Following the establishment of football with it's newly found rulebook came other different sports around the world which involved a ball and were named by the same title.

Those countries/regions with more popular sports by the same name of football decided to call football by the name of soccer. Thus the name soccer spread and was used even in Britain by some following it becoming popular abroad.

Please do correct me if I'm inaccurate on any of this.

btw apologies for going off on one earlier. Its just a bugbear of mine that us Europeans have tendency to become footballing nazis towards the more casual US fans.

[GUT]

G'day Steadmund

Point of fact, Hearns broke his hand in the 1st round of the Hagler fight (I'm not making any excuses, I think Hagler would have beaten Hearns anyway, and I agree 9 out of 10 times (possibly 10 out of 10) but just imagine if Hearns was still able to hit him in the 2nd and 3rd like he did in the first!!!. I would agree that Hagler is arguably the best Middleweight ever (then again, Sugar Ray Robinson and even Bernard Hopkins may have something to say about that )

As for the best puncher, as a heavyweight I would say Ernie Shavers (so would anyone who ever faced him as well, including Ali, Holmes etc.) Foreman was a great puncher, as was Tyson, and Dempsey, but Shavers was just something else (problem was if you could get thru the 1st 3 or 4 rounds he was done).

The reason I used Hears-Duran as an example, yes Duran was "past his prime" and at a much higher weight, but he was always so tough and durable, and too see him just get totally blown away like that...was wow... Another example could have been the George Foreman vs. Joe Frazier fights.... again, yes Foreman was a monster puncher, but, Frazier was just such a hard man and to see him just destroyed... was something else.

Steadmund Brand--

I had actually forgotten about Shavers, but I still think George [especially Mark II] hit harder.

[jason_c]

Hopkins was a top class fighter, as was Roy Jones Jr. Personally, I would put Jones ahead of Hopkins when both in their prime. Jones was finished by the time he was 30 by going up a weight and coming down a weight, but he was red hot in his prime.

Still, Joe Calzaghe beat both of them. Admittedly Jones and Hopkins were past their best but so was Joe. They all avoided him for years because they knew how dangerous he was. That lad could box, some called him a slapper but he could bang very hard for a supposed slapper.

The only shame for Joe is that we'll never truly know how good he was because he didn't fight the Yanks when at their best, but Joe was the sort of fighter who raised his game when needed and I always felt he had another couple of gears in him.

Jeff Lacy was supposed to be the next big thing in American boxing and Joe destroyed him with Lacy not winning a single round. Joe had pretty much everything: could hit hard, solid chin, lightening fast hands, good defence, started the 12th round like he started the 1st. One of British boxing's greatest regrets that he never got to prove just how good he was.

Either way, I wouldn't have fancied Joe's chances against Hagler.

I dont know whowas avoiding who when it comes to Calzaghe, Hopkins and Jones. For such a manly sport as boxing boxers can be the most petty minded, excuse mongering ponces going. I suspect it is because their manliness is brought into question after a defeat in the sport that they fall back on such pettiness. What was frustrating about Calzaghe was during the prime part of his career he was too content to be a hometown fighter going up against second rate opponents.

[The Good Michael]

Back to Halfpenny: I disagree that Halfpenny should play wing on the national side. In Toulon, maybe. On the national team, Halfpenny is more useful as a leader of the back 3. I think his mind can control what the wings do and that is sorely needed.

Mike

[Sam Flynn]

Back to Halfpenny: I disagree that Halfpenny should play wing on the national side. In Toulon, maybe. On the national team, Halfpenny is more useful as a leader of the back 3. I think his mind can control what the wings do and that is sorely needed.

He's a great reader of the game, so your observation has considerable merit, Mike.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I dont know whowas avoiding who when it comes to Calzaghe, Hopkins and Jones. For such a manly sport as boxing boxers can be the most petty minded, excuse mongering ponces going. I suspect it is because their manliness is brought into question after a defeat in the sport that they fall back on such pettiness. What was frustrating about Calzaghe was during the prime part of his career he was too content to be a hometown fighter going up against second rate opponents.

Joe was lined up to fight Hopkins, but Hopkins pulled out and fought Carl somebody, can't remember his second name.

Hopkins wouldn't have bottled it, but his promoters did because they knew Joe was a very dangerous opponent for little gain.

It is a monumental myth to say Joe was a 'hometown fighter'. He would have fought anyone and his team put in on a plate for them, but the best of the Yanks wouldn't fight him because they knew how good he was. I'm not saying he would have beaten Jones or Hopkins in their prime, but he could have done, and they knew this and what did they have to gain from stalling a career against someone from our shores where traditionally the Yanks think we're two bob?

You better believe that Joe would have given them a very good go at the least because he had everything. Admittedly he couldn't punch like Jones or Hopkins, but he was a beautiful boxer with lightening quick hands. He also could take a dig, and he was the sort of fighter who when he got knocked down (very, very rarely) that his was cue to show what he was made of.

One of Britain's best of all time, some would say the best, but, as I say; the real shame is that he didn't get to prove how good he was because he didn't fight the Yanks at their best and not by his choice.

I personally think it would have been very difficult to beat Roy Jones Jr in his prime but you maybe would have given him evens with Jones being slightly odds on.

[jason_c]

Joe was lined up to fight Hopkins, but Hopkins pulled out and fought Carl somebody, can't remember his second name.

Hopkins wouldn't have bottled it, but his promoters did because they knew Joe was a very dangerous opponent for little gain.

It is a monumental myth to say Joe was a 'hometown fighter'. He would have fought anyone and his team put in on a plate for them, but the best of the Yanks wouldn't fight him because they knew how good he was. I'm not saying he would have beaten Jones or Hopkins in their prime, but he could have done, and they knew this and what did they have to gain from stalling a career against someone from our shores where traditionally the Yanks think we're two bob?

You better believe that Joe would have given them a very good go at the least because he had everything. Admittedly he couldn't punch like Jones or Hopkins, but he was a beautiful boxer with lightening quick hands. He also could take a dig, and he was the sort of fighter who when he got knocked down (very, very rarely) that his was cue to show what he was made of.

One of Britain's best of all time, some would say the best, but, as I say; the real shame is that he didn't get to prove how good he was because he didn't fight the Yanks at their best and not by his choice.

I personally think it would have been very difficult to beat Roy Jones Jr in his prime but you maybe would have given him evens with Jones being slightly odds on.

How do you account for the majority of Calzaghes career? The majority of which Calzaghe was fighting second raters and fighting them exclusively in the British Isles. Calzaghe was ina comfort zone for much of his career, and everything else being equal probably deserves his share of the blame for this. That it was not everyone ducking him. If Jones was fighting Hopkins, and Hopkins was fighting Jones, then it suggests neither of these guys were ducking too many opponents.

Im a Calzaghe fan. I'll defend him against those who say he wasn't as good as Hopkins or Jones in their prime. His adaptability being second to no-one in the history of the sport. I dont think he ever lost the second half of any pro fight. When he worked his opponent out there was no stopping him. However, Calzaghe is not immune from criticism. If anyone is to blame for Calzaghe not getting recognition then Calzaghe needs to take his own share of that blame.

[DVV]

Back to Halfpenny: I disagree that Halfpenny should play wing on the national side. In Toulon, maybe. On the national team, Halfpenny is more useful as a leader of the back 3. I think his mind can control what the wings do and that is sorely needed.

Mike

Especially when you have Cuthbert and North.
In Toulon the case is quite different.
Halfpenny will replace Wilkinson as the kicker, so he will play most of the games.
The local rumour has Armitage at the right wing.
I think it would be a pity.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Fleetwood Mac

How do you account for the majority of Calzaghes career? The majority of which Calzaghe was fighting second raters and fighting them exclusively in the British Isles. Calzaghe was ina comfort zone for much of his career, and everything else being equal probably deserves his share of the blame for this. That it was not everyone ducking him. If Jones was fighting Hopkins, and Hopkins was fighting Jones, then it suggests neither of these guys were ducking too many opponents.

Im a Calzaghe fan. I'll defend him against those who say he wasn't as good as Hopkins or Jones in their prime. His adaptability being second to no-one in the history of the sport. I dont think he ever lost the second half of any pro fight. When he worked his opponent out there was no stopping him. However, Calzaghe is not immune from criticism. If anyone is to blame for Calzaghe not getting recognition then Calzaghe needs to take his own share of that blame.

Account for his career? Just said, they wouldn't fight him. Nothing that Joe could do because his team laid it on a plate for them and they wouldn't take it. Same with Steve Collins, an Irishman not a Briton, but another outstanding fighter who was very, very dangerous and the likes of Roy Jones Jr avoided him like the plague.

Joe beat who was out there, such as Eubank and Kessler, as did Collins who beat Eubank and Benn, but Joe and Steve Collins had nowhere else to go if the Americans wouldn't fight them.

Nothing whatsoever to do with Joe, and he shouldn't, and doesn't among boxing fans, take any share of the blame for the fact that the best Americans gave him a swerve.

Both Collins and Joe had the potential to beat both Hopkins and Jones, and that's why the fights didn't happen until Hopkins and Jones were past their best, as was Joe.

The Jones fight, Joe absolutely destroyed him, although, as said, Jones was finished by the time he was 30 and he fought Joe when he was 40.

Hopkins gave a much better account, but one thing about American judges is that's it's unbelievable how they can score the fight so differently. Think one had it 114-113 Hopkins and another had it 116-111 Calzaghe. I just don't get how these people could have such a different take on the fight, but American judges are renowned for being all over the show and you should expect the unexpected. Personally, I thought Joe won it by a couple of rounds.

[Steadmund Brand]

I will give Calzaghe all the credit in the world, he was a great fight, well deserving of his Hall of Fame induction this year ( in his first year eligible as well..!!), great fighter, fought or tried to fight everyone around at the time, took him years to get his due respect here in America… but the reason a prime Jones Jr. (who in his prime may have been the most gifted fighter I have ever seen) or Bernard Hopkins, did not fight him was… there was no money in it, all risk, no reward sad to say. By the time he was able to make a name for himself in the states (thanks to beating Kessler, and it was Kessler who was the name here in the states).. the best of his era were well past their prime.. now, part of this is Joe’s fault, as he would not come to America to fight (until the last 2 fights, Hopkins and Jones Jr.), if he were more willing to get some exposure in America, on a big event Pay Per View undercard, or an HBO or Showtime card, he would have made a bigger name for himself and hence would have gotten those bigger fights ( that’s what Manny Pacquiao did and look how well it served him)

I understand a lot of European fighters don’t like coming to the States, they feel they won’t get a fair shake, but that’s a two way street, very few Americans feel they can get a fair decision in Europe (Granted more so In Germany than the UK) but if you want the big names or the big fights then you have to get your name out there, Winky Wright did it going to Europe to fight top level fighters when he was ducked in the states, and on the other side, in his prime, Naseem Hamed came to the states to fight the respected but way past his prime Kevin Kelly to make his face known here (I believe Hamed doesn’t get the respect he deserves from a historical standpoint, yes, he was too flashy, and worked more on his dancing then his fighting for the Barerra fight ( a fact told to me by the late great Emanuel Stewart, who was training Hamed for that fight.. told me he sparred less than 10 rounds the entire training camp, and just worked with his choreographer for the ring entrance!!) but before it all went to his head he was an electrifying fighter, with power in both hands.

Steadmund Brand

[Fleetwood Mac]

I will give Calzaghe all the credit in the world, he was a great fight, well deserving of his Hall of Fame induction this year ( in his first year eligible as well..!!), great fighter, fought or tried to fight everyone around at the time, took him years to get his due respect here in America… but the reason a prime Jones Jr. (who in his prime may have been the most gifted fighter I have ever seen) or Bernard Hopkins, did not fight him was… there was no money in it, all risk, no reward sad to say. By the time he was able to make a name for himself in the states (thanks to beating Kessler, and it was Kessler who was the name here in the states).. the best of his era were well past their prime.. now, part of this is Joe’s fault, as he would not come to America to fight (until the last 2 fights, Hopkins and Jones Jr.), if he were more willing to get some exposure in America, on a big event Pay Per View undercard, or an HBO or Showtime card, he would have made a bigger name for himself and hence would have gotten those bigger fights ( that’s what Manny Pacquiao did and look how well it served him)

I understand a lot of European fighters don’t like coming to the States, they feel they won’t get a fair shake, but that’s a two way street, very few Americans feel they can get a fair decision in Europe (Granted more so In Germany than the UK) but if you want the big names or the big fights then you have to get your name out there, Winky Wright did it going to Europe to fight top level fighters when he was ducked in the states, and on the other side, in his prime, Naseem Hamed came to the states to fight the respected but way past his prime Kevin Kelly to make his face known here (I believe Hamed doesn’t get the respect he deserves from a historical standpoint, yes, he was too flashy, and worked more on his dancing then his fighting for the Barerra fight ( a fact told to me by the late great Emanuel Stewart, who was training Hamed for that fight.. told me he sparred less than 10 rounds the entire training camp, and just worked with his choreographer for the ring entrance!!) but before it all went to his head he was an electrifying fighter, with power in both hands.

Steadmund Brand

Steadmund,

I didn't mean to say that American judges are particularly biased; I was trying to say they can be unpredictable. I don't recall many British boxers not getting the decision in the US when they deserved it, in fact only one - Barry McGuigan when he fought Steve Cruz in 1986.

Whoever agreed for McGuigan to fight Cruz in the middle of the desert in the open air, a pasty Northern Irishman, must have been mental; and at the end of the fight he was that exhausted that Cruz was only catching him with glancing blows and McGuigan was hanging on for dear life, and McGuigan could take a punch. But, Barry had done enough to win that fight, probably by 2 rounds, and he didn't get the decision.

Joe would not go to the US?! That's just not true. He was lined up to fight Hopkins and Hopkins pulled out. The reason they wouldn't fight him is because he was dangerous and could have stalled one or two careers.

I can't remember any Americans not getting a fair decision here. A problem here is that we tend to like fighters who go forward and with a better work rate, so cagey counter-punchers who can really box, which is what most American fighters are, are at a disadvantage: that much is true.

The only poor decision I remember here for an American fighter was McLellan. The referee was actually French, but he kept stepping in and separating them and basically preventing McLellan from finishing the job against Benn, because I'm convinced Benn was one punch from going back through the ropes and it would have been a first round knock out. But, that was nothing to do with us; that was a French referee massively out of his depth.

As for Hamed, he's not really rated that highly here. Poor defence, not a great chin. I can think of: Benn, Eubank, Calzaghe, Watson, Hatton, Froch all rated much more highly. Oh, and Froch, the least capable of these fighters, beat Kessler who in my mind was one dimensional and nothing special at all.