Brazil's Humiliating Defeat

[The Good Michael]

Especially when you have Cuthbert and North.
In Toulon the case is quite different.
Halfpenny will replace Wilkinson as the kicker, so he will play most of the games.
The local rumour has Armitage at the right wing.
I think it would be a pity.

That's exactly who I was thinking of. Cuthbert and North have great physical attributes and are good tacklers, but they don't think clearly in my opinion. That's where Halfpenny comes in. It used to be that the fullback position was sort of a last hope kind of thing, and I'm talking 20 years ago. Nowadays, as a finely tuned back 3, they do all kinds of damage. Still, many teams don't seem to use them that way, and it's still a pack game for many.

Mike

[Steadmund Brand]

Steadmund,

I didn't mean to say that American judges are particularly biased; I was trying to say they can be unpredictable. I don't recall many British boxers not getting the decision in the US when they deserved it, in fact only one - Barry McGuigan when he fought Steve Cruz in 1986.

Whoever agreed for McGuigan to fight Cruz in the middle of the desert in the open air, a pasty Northern Irishman, must have been mental; and at the end of the fight he was that exhausted that Cruz was only catching him with glancing blows and McGuigan was hanging on for dear life, and McGuigan could take a punch. But, Barry had done enough to win that fight, probably by 2 rounds, and he didn't get the decision.

Joe would not go to the US?! That's just not true. He was lined up to fight Hopkins and Hopkins pulled out. The reason they wouldn't fight him is because he was dangerous and could have stalled one or two careers.

I can't remember any Americans not getting a fair decision here. A problem here is that we tend to like fighters who go forward and with a better work rate, so cagey counter-punchers who can really box, which is what most American fighters are, are at a disadvantage: that much is true.

The only poor decision I remember here for an American fighter was McLellan. The referee was actually French, but he kept stepping in and separating them and basically preventing McLellan from finishing the job against Benn, because I'm convinced Benn was one punch from going back through the ropes and it would have been a first round knock out. But, that was nothing to do with us; that was a French referee massively out of his depth.

As for Hamed, he's not really rated that highly here. Poor defence, not a great chin. I can think of: Benn, Eubank, Calzaghe, Watson, Hatton, Froch all rated much more highly. Oh, and Froch, the least capable of these fighters, beat Kessler who in my mind was one dimensional and nothing special at all.

Good day!

I wasn’t saying that the judges on either side of the pond were not fair, I'm just saying that is what the fighters think...not that they are right, but it's not just country to country, it's state to state here etc,

I think Calzaghe would have beat most top ranked American fighters of his time, (with the possible exception of a *PRIME* Jones Jr., who as I said, for those prime years was just on another planet).

And actually Hopkins pulled out of the Calzaghe fight due to more money offered....as I said.. it's money that moves things in the sport, then again it is called prize fighting. I also agree he would have given Hopkins a hell of a fight, and I even give Calzaghe the slight edge. Kessler was very one dimensional, agreed, but as I said, he made a name for himself here, and brought more money to the table because of it, not that I agree with it being that way, but it just is.

As for the great UK fighters, wow, there have been some amazing ones.. Ted Lewis, Bob Fitzsimmons, Jimmy Wilde, Lennox Lewis, all those on your list, Kenny Buchanan, Randy Turpin, Sir Henry Cooper, I could go on and on... I hate that European fighters get such a bad rep in the states "they are too upright, they can't punch, they aren’t tough" it's a load of .. to put it your way, bullocks ... and we haven’t even started talking about eastern European fighters

P.S it's always good to talk to a fight fan, especially one who knows what they are talking about!!!

-- Steadmund Brand--

[DVV]

That's exactly who I was thinking of. Cuthbert and North have great physical attributes and are good tacklers, but they don't think clearly in my opinion. That's where Halfpenny comes in. It used to be that the fullback position was sort of a last hope kind of thing, and I'm talking 20 years ago. Nowadays, as a finely tuned back 3, they do all kinds of damage. Still, many teams don't seem to use them that way, and it's still a pack game for many.

Mike

Before the Professional era, the full-back was usually the most talented player of the rear-lines, Serge Blanco being the typical example of such free electron who could "save the country" anytime by a stroke of genius.

Thereafter, in my opinion, they have been mostly used as defenders - long kicks....profile of somebody who could almost play 10, but was not talented enough. Or a wing with a big foot...

From 1995 until recent years, I can't remember of many great 15....

However, these last years, I really enjoyed European fullbacks. Kearney, Mike Brown, Brice Dulin...were all a joy to watch in the last six nations.

But rather than by Halfpenny, I am greatly impressed by Stuart Hogg. What a marvelous rugbyman !

Thanks to all these talented players, perhaps modern rugby will finally learn to use fullbacks as they deserve to : dangerous and impredictable players.

[Cogidubnus]

As for the best puncher, as a heavyweight I would say Ernie Shavers (so would anyone who ever faced him as well, including Ali, Holmes etc.) Foreman was a great puncher, as was Tyson, and Dempsey, but Shavers was just something else (problem was if you could get thru the 1st 3 or 4 rounds he was done).

I think you'd need to ask someone with a "rep" who this might be...and I'd suggest asking Ali, who I'm inclined to believe was the most talented fighter of his generation, and perhaps more...ask him, who hurt him most in his good years...who came close to stopping him dead...

And I think it might well be Henry Cooper (Our 'enery)...mind you I have to admit a certain bias!

All the best

Dave

[GUT]

That's exactly who I was thinking of. Cuthbert and North have great physical attributes and are good tacklers, but they don't think clearly in my opinion. That's where Halfpenny comes in. It used to be that the fullback position was sort of a last hope kind of thing, and I'm talking 20 years ago. Nowadays, as a finely tuned back 3, they do all kinds of damage. Still, many teams don't seem to use them that way, and it's still a pack game for many.

Mike

G'day Mike and David

Why all this talk about wings and fullbacks all they do is poonce about and score tries it is the 1 and 3 that do all the real work.

Bet you can't guess where I played.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Good day!

I wasn’t saying that the judges on either side of the pond were not fair, I'm just saying that is what the fighters think...not that they are right, but it's not just country to country, it's state to state here etc,

I think Calzaghe would have beat most top ranked American fighters of his time, (with the possible exception of a *PRIME* Jones Jr., who as I said, for those prime years was just on another planet).

And actually Hopkins pulled out of the Calzaghe fight due to more money offered....as I said.. it's money that moves things in the sport, then again it is called prize fighting. I also agree he would have given Hopkins a hell of a fight, and I even give Calzaghe the slight edge. Kessler was very one dimensional, agreed, but as I said, he made a name for himself here, and brought more money to the table because of it, not that I agree with it being that way, but it just is.

As for the great UK fighters, wow, there have been some amazing ones.. Ted Lewis, Bob Fitzsimmons, Jimmy Wilde, Lennox Lewis, all those on your list, Kenny Buchanan, Randy Turpin, Sir Henry Cooper, I could go on and on... I hate that European fighters get such a bad rep in the states "they are too upright, they can't punch, they aren’t tough" it's a load of .. to put it your way, bullocks ... and we haven’t even started talking about eastern European fighters

P.S it's always good to talk to a fight fan, especially one who knows what they are talking about!!!

-- Steadmund Brand--

Hello Steadmund,

For clarity, if I was a bookmaker I wouldn't have had Joe down as favourite against either Hopkins or Jones. All I'm saying is he could have beaten both of them when all in their prime. Joe was more like an American fighter than a British fighter. British fighters tend to want to walk through punches to get to where they want the fight to go for them, such as Hatton who was happy to take a few if it meant he could back you into a corner, but Joe was in bang out and he'd hit you and be gone before you had time to size him up.

Some of those fighters you mention, Steadmund, weren't great fighters. Henry Cooper will be forever known for knocking Ali over but he wasn't anything special at all really.

I think we've done well for a nation of 60 million people today. The Americans are obviously the number one boxing nation, but 300 million people. And, we could possibly lay claim to being the second boxing nation when considering we're only a small country, or others might go for the Mexicans.

One thing's for sure, pound for pound we haven't produced what the Americans have produced. 1 to 5 ratio of people? The Americans have produced: Tyson, Mayweather, Leonard, Hagler, Hearns, and we haven't produced anyone of that calibre, ever. Lewis isn't British, he learned his craft in North America.

Same with you, Steadmund, 'pleasure talking with you.

[Steadmund Brand]

[QUOTE=Cogidubnus;299870]I think you'd need to ask someone with a "rep" who this might be...and I'd suggest asking Ali, who I'm inclined to believe was the most talented fighter of his generation, and perhaps more...ask him, who hurt him most in his good years...who came close to stopping him dead..

Actually Ali did say Shavers hit him hardest, as did Larry Holmes...Copper hit Ali hard no doubt, and he was out on his feet for sure (Dundee saved the day with the "split glove")



Some of those fighters you mention, Steadmund, weren't great fighters. Henry Cooper will be forever known for knocking Ali over but he wasn't anything special at all really.

not the best, no, but three Lonsdale belts does say something (even if the competition wasn’t that good)


One thing's for sure, pound for pound we haven't produced what the Americans have produced. 1 to 5 ratio of people? The Americans have produced: Tyson, Mayweather, Leonard, Hagler, Hearns, and we haven't produced anyone of that calibre, ever. Lewis isn't British, he learned his craft in North America.

Ok, I know Lewis sometimes doesn't know if he is British or Jamaican or Canadian (who he won gold for), but i was being generous and giving him to you (as I really think he was an all-time great Heavyweight... I get laughed at for that in boxing circles at times, but he had an amazing mix of size and style... and I dare say the BEST overhand right I ever saw a big man throw (yes even better than the one Ali used against Foreman)

I have been meaning to ask you Fleetwood, did you get to go to the Froch- Groves rematch......I wish I had the money to hve gone to England for it (I haven't been to London since 2009 ), I do know the guy who was the ref for the fight, not well, so I havent talked to him since he came back, but I'll be seeing him next month probably....but what a punch eh?

Steadmund Brand

[DVV]

Hi George

G'day Mike and David

Why all this talk about wings and fullbacks all they do is poonce about and score tries it is the 1 and 3 that do all the real work.

Bet you can't guess where I played.

I know.
Your real name is George Gregan.

[GUT]

I know.
Your real name is George Gregan.

Actually same initials but just slightly bigger than young George.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I have been meaning to ask you Fleetwood, did you get to go to the Froch- Groves rematch......I wish I had the money to hve gone to England for it (I haven't been to London since 2009 ), I do know the guy who was the ref for the fight, not well, so I havent talked to him since he came back, but I'll be seeing him next month probably....but what a punch eh?

Steadmund Brand

Hello Steadmund,

I'm in Scandanavia so havent had a chance to reply.

Froch v Groves? No, never in a million years would I have paid to watch that.

Groves is decent enough - can punch a bit, quick enough, awkward but only got hit once or twice and that was it. The fight was too early for him and he needs to develop a chin otherwise he may as well pack it in. Froch is nothing special and has been very fortunate in that he is fighting in a mediocre division. As soon as he came up against a half decent opponent in Andre Ward he got taught a boxing lesson. Froch is a hard fella, very game, great chin, very durable - but he cant box. He can scrap, and he will scrap all day long but a decent boxer will take him to the cleaners every time.

We do have a very good boxer here though from Sheffield - a lad called Kell Brook - now that kid can box and has everything you would want in a boxer. Easily the best British boxer knocking about.

[Steadmund Brand]

Good day, enjoying Scandanavia I hope....

Oh I know Kell Brook (well I don't know him.. but know of him) and I am looking forward to the Shawn Porter fight next month...will be a good test for Brook, who I think should win.

Froch is a tough kid, I think has faster hands then people give him credit, not really slick, but, as you said hard... too bad that Andre Ward fight was such a bore, I really think Froch would do much better in a rematch... but nobody wants to see it... least of all the networks..

Steadmund Brand

[GUT]

The young fellow fighting Daniel Gael this week looks like he can hit.