Bnp

[Fleetwood Mac]

Thanks Dave

Either Dave's on a wind up or you're thanking him for completely misinforming you, GUT.

To all intents and purposes they're a conservative party who want out of the European Union, like many Tory back-benchers.

They're a right wing party, yes, but certainly not extreme (unless of course you view valuing the sovereignty of your nation as extreme).

Christ, has this what it's come to. Placing importance on sovereignty means you're extreme?!!!

[Robert]

FM, if I might exaggerate a little, and if I might borrow a joke from Gibbon : this is the only light Parliament ever shed.

http://www.wikiart.org/en/william-turner/the-burning-of-the-houses-of-parliament-2

[Robert]

Simply right.

[GUT]

Thanks Dave

[Cogidubnus]

extreme xenophobic right...

[GUT]

G'day all

Just heard that UKIP has done well recently, I assume that a major part of their policy is get out of EU is that correct.

Would you classify them as right, left centre, or where do they fall?

[Robert]

Hi FM

Well, my posts weren't meant as an attack on the British (there's nothing wrong with them that a deferencectomy wouldn't cure) so much as an attack on their so-called leaders.

Yes, we are jealous of our little patch of land, with its house and its garden. But look at the enclosure acts : when the lord wants your little patch of land, he will have your little patch of land, and off you go to the mill. Sometimes whole villages were moved or destroyed so that the lord's park would have a pleasing prospect.

Family life is another tradition. We've always been a family-oriented nation. Pity then that when they opened the workhouses, they separated the sexes. Might breed, you see. Arthur Quiller-Couch wrote a story in which an aged man and his aged wife grew too old to manage by themselves, whereupon they reluctantly entered the workhouse, and where they were separated - might breed, you see.

Patriotism? We've always been patriotic and we see things through to the bitter end. Our reward? To be told we're racists, fascists and xenophobes. It's "we don't need you now. Sod off."

I think the troops who fought the Peninsular War didn't even get a campaign medal.

Yea, UKIP has been doing well. Maybe the British have woken up to the meaning of the EU. 40 years too late, but better late than never.

Re Germany, ah, well you see what happened was that our leaders, in their transcendental wisdom, chose not to declare war on Germany when Germany marched into the Rhineland and violated the treaty. Oh no, no, no, they were far too clever for that. What they did instead, was to wait while Hitler stole Austria, the Sudetenland, the rest of what is now the Czech Republic, installed puppet regimes in various other countries, and armed himself to the hilt. The trap was sprung : Hitler had been lulled into a false sense of security. Quick as a flash, our gifted and talented leaders declared war on Germany over a nation that we couldn't help and couldn't even reach. It was a masterstroke, and sure enough, six years later, the strategy was vindicated.

No other country in the world is lucky enough to have leaders like this.

[Fleetwood Mac]

You Brits seem like nice people. I like you as a rule. But you do have a streak of exclusionism a mile wide, and that's a problem. I have noticed that the idea of social evolution in your country is considered bad. Evolution isn't necessarily better than the old way, just what is needed to survive. But historically, the most extreme groups are the ones who want to turn back the clock. Even if they identify themselves as moderate. For example many countries stay in the EU and retain a very personal identity. France for instance. If Britain cannot be in the EU and still be British, that's not necessarily a sign that the EU is contradictory to British identity. It may be that the British identity is no longer strong enough to withstand outside influence. And the solution to that isn't isolationism. It's forging a new identity.

Hello Errata,

Without being rude, I would suggest you have a read about England's history.

A streak of exclusionism? Which country do you think began to practice religious and civil tolerance and parliamentary democracy in the 1700s while our neighbours over the water had absolute monarchist societies and civil and religious strife which far outweighed what was happening in England?

Look at the British Empire, because there was certainly a tendency toward thinking that the English had a duty to pass on our expertise to the rest of the world. If anything we have been overbearing throughout history rather than isolationist.

And, the EU identity is inherently different to the English identity. We have an entirely different history and culture and way of thinking, not to mention an economy that is structured differently and simply does not fit neatly into one currency and one set of interest rates etc.

Using your logic, Errata, why don't we just have one world government and all become the same. We'll call it the United States of the World and what we'll do is we'll force the United States to contribute the most as the world's largest economy and we'll give your money to Zimbabwe and Afghanistan and Turkey. That's how the EU works. Sucking the life out of the enterprise of the people who live in the more successful societies.

Why on earth would I want German or French or Italian officials governing my country? Firstly, I don't agree with much of what they have to say and secondly the farther away you are from government the less chance you have to influence it.

It's not exclusionist to want out of the EU. I have no problem with any of them over water, God knows I've visited enough places over there and enjoyed their company; put simply, I don't want to be governed by them, which doesn't mean I have a streak of Exclusionism. Would you want to be governed by them?

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi FM

Well, we're a people that doesn't believe in societies based on first principles. Apart from the fact that there ARE no first principles, we understand that no system based on such will work properly, and we prefer commonsense, fudge, muddling though, and respect for tradition because at least that has worked (more or less) in the past.

Unfortunately one of the traditions we respect is the age-old tradition of standing by with a "thank'ee, sir" while our masters tear up the rule book and change the tradition, e.g. by packing us off to factories and mills when it suits them, or sticking a flag in our hands and telling us to fight for our independence, after which they sign away our independence and within a few years call us racists and xenophobes if we show signs of wanting to recover it.

At the root of all this is the delusion that our masters are educated men who know so much better than us. In fact, they know sod all about anything except lying, fiddling, lazing around and sucking up to whichever gang happens to be strutting the world stage at the time, whether it's the Nazis (1930s) or the EU.

Hello Robert,

There's not a great deal in the above that I agree with.

Firstly, there are certainly some pertinent guiding principles within English society. We don't have a written constitution, granted, but that in itself tells a story: dogma is not something which is appreciated in this country (a principle in itself).

The absolute guiding principle in England, at least traditionally, and unfortunately the left have done their level best to usurp this principle; is that when push comes to shove we are animals and animals can be very dangerous. As such, it is wise for people and society to understand their limitations, borne out in the idea that power corrupts and it is foolhardy to trust a body of well meaning people.

Consequently, we're pretty much an easy come easy go people who can't get too excited about what happens in the public domain but will protect our back garden at all costs. In France say, the Government can have rail routes that run through hitherto private areas knocked up in a crack. In this country, not a chance. There are countless petitions with the message being: "not in my back garden".

That is very wise in my opinion and when most people in this country say: "I'm not political", what they mean is I don't have a lot of time for politicians and grand ideals but when my independence is threatened that's a different matter.

In terms, of flags and war: every people in the world is mobilised through pride and fear. Just look at the Sandinistas who were a rag tag outfit who were turned into the Mongol Hordes by a committed US government, and before you know it they have the population on side. Oldest trick in the book and hardly a specifically English trait. In fact, if you look down the centuries we have not fought the amount of protracted wars that say the French or the Germans and most Europeans have; we tended to go in for short spats involving commerce (or theft depending upon point of view). It seems then that we aren't so easily convinced.

Also, judging by UKIP's recent results it seems that independence is something that remains very much alive and well in this country.

Sucking up to the Nazis? Couldn't be more wrong. WW1 made everyone think twice and Britain simply did not have the financial clout to fight a war in the 1930's that she did in 1914. Furthermore, Hitler's demands up to 1938 did not seem unreasonable as he annexed parts of the map that were previously parts of Germany and it was general consensus in England that the Treaty of Versailles was not reasonable (on all sides of the political spectrum including Keynes). Austria was the tipping point because German demands became unreasonable.

It wasn't our fight, anyway. England had always done best from keeping out of European quarrels but I suppose it could be argued that Hitler threatened the balance of power and so it became our quarrel. Personally, I think we should have kept out of it: thinking we're the world's police led to near ruin 1914-1918.

[Limehouse]

Hi FM

Well, we're a people that doesn't believe in societies based on first principles. Apart from the fact that there ARE no first principles, we understand that no system based on such will work properly, and we prefer commonsense, fudge, muddling though, and respect for tradition because at least that has worked (more or less) in the past.

Unfortunately one of the traditions we respect is the age-old tradition of standing by with a "thank'ee, sir" while our masters tear up the rule book and change the tradition, e.g. by packing us off to factories and mills when it suits them, or sticking a flag in our hands and telling us to fight for our independence, after which they sign away our independence and within a few years call us racists and xenophobes if we show signs of wanting to recover it.

At the root of all this is the delusion that our masters are educated men who know so much better than us. In fact, they know sod all about anything except lying, fiddling, lazing around and sucking up to whichever gang happens to be strutting the world stage at the time, whether it's the Nazis (1930s) or the EU.

I think that's a very fair, honest and accurate assessment Robert.

[Robert]

Hi FM

Well, we're a people that doesn't believe in societies based on first principles. Apart from the fact that there ARE no first principles, we understand that no system based on such will work properly, and we prefer commonsense, fudge, muddling though, and respect for tradition because at least that has worked (more or less) in the past.

Unfortunately one of the traditions we respect is the age-old tradition of standing by with a "thank'ee, sir" while our masters tear up the rule book and change the tradition, e.g. by packing us off to factories and mills when it suits them, or sticking a flag in our hands and telling us to fight for our independence, after which they sign away our independence and within a few years call us racists and xenophobes if we show signs of wanting to recover it.

At the root of all this is the delusion that our masters are educated men who know so much better than us. In fact, they know sod all about anything except lying, fiddling, lazing around and sucking up to whichever gang happens to be strutting the world stage at the time, whether it's the Nazis (1930s) or the EU.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hey Dave, you only got your palace from those bloody foreign Romans.

FM, I think Nietzsche viewed anti-semitism as a symptom of weakness and resentment - a sort of "well at least I can feel superior to them " attitude. Nietzsche advocated power but it wasn't the power of the State or the jackboot. It was basically the power of self-control. But of course in order to have self-control, one needs something within oneself to control. Hence his strictures against Christianity, which wants pureness of heart : "the spiritualisation of sensuality is called love. It is a great triumph over Christianity." It's a sort of dualism, with the Dionysian controlled by the Apollinian but driving it ever higher. "Of all evil I deem you capable. Therefore I want the good from you. Verily I have often laughed at the weaklings who think themselves virtuous because they have no claws."

He wasn't opposed to pity as such, but disapproved of it when it actually harmed the people to whom it was directed, or constantly distracted the pity-giver from pursuing his own life.

I could be wrong but my reading of Nietzsche is that he had no time for anyone who defined themselves in relation to some other group, borrowing from Hegel's Master/Slave dialectic. That doesn't make him pro-Jewish.

I think he was vehemently opposed to the notion of 'pity' because of the inherent nature of pity (compassion being an altogether different concept);

Oh, and I disagree with your assessment of English political acumen. We're very astute in that regard. We know it's a load of bollocks in the sense that politicians are limited in what they can achieve, and we've known this in this country for centuries. We're a pragmatic, sceptical, realist people who instinctively understand that the road to hell is paved with the good intentions of a well meaning body of people.

[Sam Flynn]

I just want to know why Germany has produced so many great physicists?

And chemists, astronomers, poets, playwrights, novelists, philosophers, composers, artists... with veritable giants in each field. Why should this be? I've no idea either

[Sam Flynn]

I think that actually we are more docile and herd-like than the Germans. Our governments feed us sh*t and we swallow. We wouldn't have done a Germany in the 1930s because we would have been too frightened of disobeying the Weimar Republic to vote for Nazis and Communists. In fact, the British are too lazy to commit genocide.

Spot-on, Robert - albeit I'd have inclined to use the word "apathetic" rather than "lazy".

[Errata]

Hi Errata
with all due respect. after 9-11 and all the killings in the schools you are complaining about being searched?
and applauding someone who throws axes at kids?

your kidding right?

What can I say? First of all, Hammy used to be in the circus. he could take a grape off my head without slicing a hair with one of his axes, and he never gets near the kids. He just scares the hell out him. Shouting war cries. The guy is just so damn weird and cool I want to be him. Not because he throws axes at kids. Though these kids are little shits. We aren't talking about just passing through kids. We are talking about "he's different let's burn down the barn and all his horses" kids. It's a boys will be boys kinda place here. And Hammy is awesome.

And I do object to being searched. I object to the fact that I live in a world where searching people is a fact of life. I resent that people find it necessary, I resent that I occasionally agree with them. This isn't the world I wanted. It's not the world I thought it would be. And I resent that. I should resent that. We should all resent that. I don't believe in surrendering rights for security. But I do it. It is a very real divide between my ideals and my reality, and 13 years on I still haven't sorted it out in my head. I can't help feeling like I'm becoming something I hate. It's not that I don't get it, I just don't want it to be this way. Not that I have a solution, but this is a long term struggle for me.