Bnp

[Fleetwood Mac]

Haha, well, yeah, guess it will be difficult, eh.

[533551 carnivorous amphibian-related jokes deleted here]

B

What was it the French President said after the Olympics went to London and not Paris: "it's an absolute disgrace, only Finland has worse food than them, how can such a country hold the Olympics". Ahem.

The French never seem to get the rub of the green and are always left feeling bitter. They still resent us because our language spread far and wide and they feel they were rightful heirs to this throne. The beauty of it is that they wanted it so much and we're really not that bothered about it. You gotta laugh. They don't see the funny side though.

[bolo]

It is Paul, Boris.

The English and the French talking to one another We'd argue over the colour of the sky.

Haha, well, yeah, guess it will be difficult, eh.

[533551 carnivorous amphibian-related jokes deleted here]

B

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hey Paul (your name's Paul, isn't it?),

Parts of the propaganda we had here starting from the days of Prussia's reign

Have you been to that museum in Eastern Berlin, Boris, the one dedicated to German/Russian relations? Christ, that's an eye-opener. The propaganda posters from both sides have to be seen to be believed, many from well before the time of the Nazis. It seems they really hated one another.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hey Paul (your name's Paul, isn't it?),



I'm aware of the European history and the two World Wars. I just think it can't hurt to sit on a round table and talk to eachother in order to find out how other nations tick. Parts of the propaganda we had here starting from the days of Prussia's reign (the "arch-enemy" France, for example) worked because people and politicians didn't bother to actually talk to their neighbours and find out how their minds work.

That's what I mean with the European idea.

Other than that, I don't support the EU thing at all.

And I want my Deutschmarks back...



Bingo. That is what I'm talking about. I love my neighbour but don't really want him to tell me how to do things at home. I'm not nationalist in the least, just fed up with all that EU nonsense.

Best wishes,

Boris

It is Paul, Boris.

The English and the French talking to one another We'd argue over the colour of the sky.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi FM

If you think Versailles was harsh, what about the German-imposed Brest-Litovsk?

Hello Robert,

Yeah, there is an argument to say what goes around comes around and the Germans inflicted a similarly harsh dictat on the French in 1870, but the Americans and the British were in a mood of reconciliation until it dawned on the Americans that they weren't gonna get their money back unless they bullied the Germans into accepting responsibility for the war; which really they weren't (no more than the French or the British).

It was a widely held belief in England that a ruined Germany in the centre of Europe was not good for England.

[bolo]

Hey Paul (your name's Paul, isn't it?),

Very clear, but this is exactly the sentiment which is misguided, historically inaccurate and shows the European Union to be the utter farce it is. It has supported for many wrong reasons but none more so than the idea that it will prevent nationalism and hostility.

WW1 started because the Russians and French refused to accept what were reasonable demands on the part of the Austrians. Mlada Bosna were sponsored by the Serbian government. It was an act of terrorism when they shot the heir to the Austrian throne. Not too dissimilar to what happened in New York, except the American response was far more stern than the Austrian one. The Russians supported their neighbours out of some misplaced Slav brotherhood and the French supported the Russians out of economic reasons - they were tied together through bonds.

This is why it was generally felt in England that the Treaty of Versailles was harsh and so was the War Guilt Clause which was never intended to be in the treaty, except the Americans, who were originally concerned with a just peace, realised they couldn't get the money back they'd loaned Britain who'd passed much of it onto France because the French had none. The only way the Americans could get their money back was by getting it from Germany and this meant the War Guilt Clause had to be inserted into the treaty and this wasn't conceived until 1919.

The German delegates who walked up the steps into the conference were not prepared for the severity of the treaty. They were gobsmacked but had no option to sign. And, as said earlier, this is why the British government did not oppose the Germans taking the Rhineland back. To The British the Rhineland was German anyway and had been unjustly taken from them.

Anyway, that's a bit of a digression. But no one envisaged a war in 1914. It came as a bolt out of the blue and wasn't caused by nations wanting to kill one another but by terrorism and a ridiculous decision on the part of the Russians which at that point because of binding treaties and economic ties meant it escalated far beyond what it should have been.

I'm aware of the European history and the two World Wars. I just think it can't hurt to sit on a round table and talk to eachother in order to find out how other nations tick. Parts of the propaganda we had here starting from the days of Prussia's reign (the "arch-enemy" France, for example) worked because people and politicians didn't bother to actually talk to their neighbours and find out how their minds work.

That's what I mean with the European idea.

Other than that, I don't support the EU thing at all.

And I want my Deutschmarks back...

Hi Boris

I'm all for countries talking to each other and having good relations.

I'm afraid the Press tends to use misleading expressions, calling someone "anti-Europe" when the person is simply anti-EU.

Bingo. That is what I'm talking about. I love my neighbour but don't really want him to tell me how to do things at home. I'm not nationalist in the least, just fed up with all that EU nonsense.

Best wishes,

Boris

[Robert]

Hi FM

If you think Versailles was harsh, what about the German-imposed Brest-Litovsk?

[Fleetwood Mac]

Could you clarify what/who you mean by 'the left'? If you mean 'the left' of the electorate, well 67% of those who voted, voted to stay in. If you mean 'the left' of the Labour Party, the majority of front benchers were in favour. As I have already pointed out, many leading Trade Union leaders and members were anti EU - but they did not affect the result of the referendum - so di they refrain from voting?

Tony Benn most certainly was not Pro European Union:


"Britain's continuing membership of the [European] Community would mean the end of Britain as a completely self-governing nation." On joining the European Community

"My view of the EU has always been not that I am hostile to foreigners but I am in favour of democracy. I think they are building an empire and want us to be part of that empire, and I don't want that." On leaving the European Community

"When I saw how the European Union was developing, it was very obvious what they had in mind was not democratic. In Britain, you vote for a government so the government has to listen to you, and if you don't like it you can change it." On democracy in Europe http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26575258

Yes, for clarity: the Labour membership which voted 2-1 to discontinue
EEC membership. I think the Labour membership is a better yardstick for 'the left' than a few leaders.

I'll give you that perhaps Tony Benn started out not wanting membership but he changed his tune at some point. I have a collection of his essays in front of me, supporting EU membership providing it was democratic as opposed to appointing commissioners.

[Robert]

Hi Boris

I'm all for countries talking to each other and having good relations.

I'm afraid the Press tends to use misleading expressions, calling someone "anti-Europe" when the person is simply anti-EU.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I don't want a centralized EU government, just for the record.

What I'm talking about is an European idea as a consequence of WW1 and 2. Parts of the hostility among European states beginning from the early days of the 20th century until the end of WW2 came from the fact that they simply didn't talk to eachother and let their nationalistic nonsense run amuck. I'm all for being friends but not sharing a single currency or letting a bunch of politicians in early retirement in Brussels and Strasbourg tell us how we have to live.

So - Yes to Europe as a continent of nations who cultivate good relationships with eachother but no to centralism of any kind.

Hope I made myself clear with this.

Boris

Very clear, but this is exactly the sentiment which is misguided, historically inaccurate and shows the European Union to be the utter farce it is. It has supported for many wrong reasons but none more so than the idea that it will prevent nationalism and hostility.

WW1 started because the Russians and French refused to accept what were reasonable demands on the part of the Austrians. Mlada Bosna were sponsored by the Serbian government. It was an act of terrorism when they shot the heir to the Austrian throne. Not too dissimilar to what happened in New York, except the American response was far more stern than the Austrian one. The Russians supported their neighbours out of some misplaced Slav brotherhood and the French supported the Russians out of economic reasons - they were tied together through bonds.

This is why it was generally felt in England that the Treaty of Versailles was harsh and so was the War Guilt Clause which was never intended to be in the treaty, except the Americans, who were originally concerned with a just peace, realised they couldn't get the money back they'd loaned Britain who'd passed much of it onto France because the French had none. The only way the Americans could get their money back was by getting it from Germany and this meant the War Guilt Clause had to be inserted into the treaty and this wasn't conceived until 1919.

The German delegates who walked up the steps into the conference were not prepared for the severity of the treaty. They were gobsmacked but had no option to sign. And, as said earlier, this is why the British government did not oppose the Germans taking the Rhineland back. To The British the Rhineland was German anyway and had been unjustly taken from them.

Anyway, that's a bit of a digression. But no one envisaged a war in 1914. It came as a bolt out of the blue and wasn't caused by nations wanting to kill one another but by terrorism and a ridiculous decision on the part of the Russians which at that point because of binding treaties and economic ties meant it escalated far beyond what it should have been.

[bolo]

This doesn't make any sense. I like Germany. Always made to feel welcome there. I have respect for Germany's history particularly as I studied British and German history at university. You are good neighbours.

But, why does this mean we have to share a government? It's like saying the bloke up the street is a canny fella so let's share a house with him and kick the missus out who's served me well over the years.

None of it makes any sense whatsoever. This whole idea that you have to have the same government to maintain good relations is ludicrous and scare-mongering.

I don't want a centralized EU government, just for the record.

What I'm talking about is an European idea as a consequence of WW1 and 2. Parts of the hostility among European states beginning from the early days of the 20th century until the end of WW2 came from the fact that they simply didn't talk to eachother and let their nationalistic nonsense run amuck. I'm all for being friends but not sharing a single currency or letting a bunch of politicians in early retirement in Brussels and Strasbourg tell us how we have to live.

So - Yes to Europe as a continent of nations who cultivate good relationships with eachother but no to centralism of any kind.

Hope I made myself clear with this.

Boris

[Limehouse]

And, the left opposed the EU in droves. They overwhelmingly voted against membership in 1975.

Could you clarify what/who you mean by 'the left'? If you mean 'the left' of the electorate, well 67% of those who voted, voted to stay in. If you mean 'the left' of the Labour Party, the majority of front benchers were in favour. As I have already pointed out, many leading Trade Union leaders and members were anti EU - but they did not affect the result of the referendum - so di they refrain from voting?

Tony Benn most certainly was not Pro European Union:


"Britain's continuing membership of the [European] Community would mean the end of Britain as a completely self-governing nation." On joining the European Community

"My view of the EU has always been not that I am hostile to foreigners but I am in favour of democracy. I think they are building an empire and want us to be part of that empire, and I don't want that." On leaving the European Community

"When I saw how the European Union was developing, it was very obvious what they had in mind was not democratic. In Britain, you vote for a government so the government has to listen to you, and if you don't like it you can change it." On democracy in Europe http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26575258

[Fleetwood Mac]

No. I'm talking about the European idea of a community of nations who know and value eachother as good neighbours.

This doesn't make any sense. I like Germany. Always made to feel welcome there. I have respect for Germany's history particularly as I studied British and German history at university. You are good neighbours.

But, why does this mean we have to share a government? It's like saying the bloke up the street is a canny fella so let's share a house with him and kick the missus out who's served me well over the years.

None of it makes any sense whatsoever. This whole idea that you have to have the same government to maintain good relations is ludicrous and scare-mongering.

[Fleetwood Mac]

The Euro currency is not the problem, it's the EU parliament with its delusions of total control over every bleedin' aspect of our lives that makes things unnecessarily difficult.

I'm a supporter of the European idea but definitely not a centralized EU government.

What is the European idea, Bolo?

From where I'm standing it is the erosion of nation states and the promotion of one European government.

And, economics is very much a problem for England because our economy is structured differently to the rest of Europe, and actually we'd quite like control over inflation and interest rates.

And, come to think of it foreign policy because we're tied in with the US. It's served us pretty well over the last 100 years and to be frank they've been a better bet than Europe: don't fix what's not broken.

[bolo]

But Bolo, that IS the European idea.

No. I'm talking about the European idea of a community of nations who know and value eachother as good neighbours.

However, the European reality in Brussels and Strasbourg is little more than an industry-controlled farce of levelling down each nation in order to create markets. They don't give a damn on the European idea.