Election

[GBinOz]

Originally posted by GBinOz View Post
Hi Jon,

I was just wondering if the migrant invasion of America by the pilgrims was considered to be illegal? Or the subsequent rape and attempted genocide of the native Americans?

By what law?

I'm sure it will not end until both sides take up weapons, then there'll be blood in the streets and all because the governments will not deal with the problem. I can see a futuristic scenario beginning to take shape in Europe.

Hi Jon,

It appears that you endorse the principle that the only legitimate law is that formulated by the more successful English robber barons when they declared themselves to be the establishment, and argued by white men dressed in robes and powdered wigs. It was from that law that the pilgrims wished to escape to the New World, to set up their own new laws, which specifically excluded the native population. So why did these new laws and culture take precedence over that of the natives? As always, the force of arms.

I suspect, with considerable dread, that your final paragraph may turn out to be true. The nature of modern weaponry is such that an escalation in this regard will not provide a desired outcome for either side. This would seem inevitable while ever weaponry is preferred to diplomacy.

Cheers, George

[Tab]

I too am at a loss and this is why I said a while ago that I intended to bow out of this conversation. It’s time to re-state it but this time to stick to it.

Awesome.

We don’t need to fact check everything.

We absolutely do.

Sadly Tab, all that you are doing is picking out the few ‘good bits’ and ignoring the issue as a whole because it makes for a sunnier outlook.

That's not what I am doing. I am calling out lies and misinformation when I see it. You have said things like these progressive Muslim organisations and charities can't exist in Muslim countries, I have then pointed out that in fact they do. You have said all Muslims are fundamentalists, me and others have pointed out that is, in fact, not the case. Instead of holding your hands up and saying you were wrong like an adult, apparently it is me 'fact checking' lies that is the problem.

Those groups require support but where does this come from ...

Certainly not from you, someone who is happy to tar an entire religion with the same hateful brush.

Perhaps, rather than telling us to look at the happier side of this argument you should take a look at the realities of what people are experiencing ‘on the ground’ rather that what left-wing support groups are telling you Tab. Go into the working class areas and see what’s going on.

...

Again not what I have been doing. I have been pointing out falsehoods which perpetuate hatred and fear. I am fully aware of the realities around me. I live in one of these working class areas in Greater London you like to wax lyrical about.

Sounds like you have voluntarily stopped learning and educating yourself. A genuine shame.

All the best,
Tab

[Herlock Sholmes]

I am at a loss. You and Wickerman stating things with such confidence, using your whole chest. Just regurgitating nonsense without even a cursory fact check. It's irresponsible.

Back to Indonesia, the largest majority Muslim country in the world. The one with a democratic secular government you'll remember.

Islam Nusantara - Represents pluralist Islam. Represents tolerance, diversity and a modern understanding of Islam

Liberal Islamic Network - Advocates pluralism, human rights and progressive interpretations of religious texts.

Nahdlatul Ulama - Based in Indonesia with 90 million members worldwide. Promotes religious reform, pluralism and interfaith dialogue.

The rest of your post stating the majority are "no middle ground - conquest - conversion" all demostrably false again.

Beggars belief.

I too am at a loss and this is why I said a while ago that I intended to bow out of this conversation. It’s time to re-state it but this time to stick to it.

We don’t need to fact check everything. Today is Tuesday…I haven’t ’fact checked’ it. Sadly Tab, all that you are doing is picking out the few ‘good bits’ and ignoring the issue as a whole because it makes for a sunnier outlook. We all want a sunnier outlook for the generations that will follow but just saying ‘everything will be fine,’ isn’t going to do much good alongside the hope that a few very-well meaning (and brave) groups are going to overpower the mountains of bigotry, misogyny, intolerance and desire for conquer that they face. Those groups require support but where does this come from when people and governments are paralysed with fear; and not just a fear of violent reprisal but the fear of being labelled Islamophobic (and there’s nothing ‘irrational’ about this fear) Is there another group that so easily takes ‘offence’ and moves straight to violence? Is there another group that plays anything like the huge part in world terrorism? Is there any other group that makes so many demands of its neighbours or hosts?

Perhaps, rather than telling us to look at the happier side of this argument you should take a look at the realities of what people are experiencing ‘on the ground’ rather that what left-wing support groups are telling you Tab. Go into the working class areas and see what’s going on. These are not happy times Tab. Optimism and fingers crossed will get us nowhere. Normally if someone accused me of ‘regurgitating nonsense’ on usual Casebook topics I certainly wouldn’t be walking away but I will here. I hope that you are right Tab. I hope that there is cause for hope. I just don’t see it. These people demand respect but what they real want is fear and submission.

[The Rookie Detective]

It's the people, not the theology. Moderates know how far to take their beliefs, that they were formulated in a more barbaric time.
The radicals interpret their theology in a literal sense akin to the 7th century, when it was written.

Newcastle - Four Syrian refugees rape a 13 year old girl.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-tyne-68446855

Their culture allows this behaviour, women are possessions, to do with as men please.

It is a very complex issue indeed.

One of the hardest things to process and learn to deal with; is that while tempting, we simply cannot tarnish everyone with the same brush.

The men who chose to repeatedly rape a 13 year old in Newcastle are first and foremost; evil bas**rds.

Outside of that fact; it is perhaps misguided to blame their actions on their religion or belief system.

it is more a cultural issue than anything else.

Raping an innocent 13 year old girl has nothing whatsoever do with being Muslim...
Because if it did, then the exact same thing would apply to those over privileged white men who choose to molest children in the Catholic church and call themselves "men of God," and use their religion as an excuse.

The fundamental issue lays in the system that is in place to deal with such cases.

When a man is given a custodial sentence for such a heinous crime, there really is no severe deterrent.

If there was a mandatory death penalty, a 40 year prison sentence or surgical removal of genitalia for any man who is PROVEN (like this case) to have raped a 13 year old, then that would be a reasonable deterrent.

The issue with the Newcastle case is that we have a gang of young men who think they are above reproach.
Removing their smirking smiles from their face is the way forward, and handing out puny prison sentences does nothing to punish the guilty.


The reason why these men deserve punishment, has nothing to do with their religion, or which country they are from...it is simply because they are vile evil men who don't deserve to be breathing air for making the conscious choice to destroy an innocent child's life.


It's a constant fight between good and evil, and far too often the latter laughs in the face of justice because it knows that the world is full of over- Liberalist morons who think everyone can be saved.


RD

[Karl]

It’s a fact. Being a fundamentalist means that the person believes that every word in their holy book is the literal word of god and so perfect. Not all Christian’s believe this but all Muslims do.

By that standard, every Christian is a fundie as well. It's Muslims who believe the Bible is simply "mostly true". Christians believe the Bible is absolutely true, but they interpret the hell out of it to make it conform to their values. Same thing Muslims do with the Quran, really. That's why Islam is practised differently from one country to the next.

But no one uses that definition when thinking about a fundamentalist, anyway. Say fundamentalist, and people conjure up the associated word: fanatic.

[Wickerman]

The Christians had their turn with compulsory belief back in the dark ages, with the witch hunts and inquisitions. The tortures visited upon the non-fundamentalists at that time were horrendous. Christianity has evolved past that, and I certainly don't endorse a repeat by another "religion of peace".

It's the people, not the theology. Moderates know how far to take their beliefs, that they were formulated in a more barbaric time.
The radicals interpret their theology in a literal sense akin to the 7th century, when it was written.

Newcastle - Four Syrian refugees rape a 13 year old girl.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-tyne-68446855

Their culture allows this behaviour, women are possessions, to do with as men please.

[Wickerman]

Hi George.

Hi Jon,

I was just wondering if the migrant invasion of America by the pilgrims was considered to be illegal? Or the subsequent rape and attempted genocide of the native Americans?

By what law?

Was Capt Cook legally justified in nominating Australia as being Terra Nullius (land belonging to nobody)?

Yes.

Was the establishment of the penal colonies considered legal or illegal by the owners of the land at the time?

How was ownership demonstrated?

I seems that migrant invaders consider their own invasions to be legal but any subsequent migrant invasion to be illegal. The dichotomy is that I am no more happy about the current migrant invasion than were the previous invadees. History teaches us that the question of who owns the land has to be qualified with another question - "at what time?". History also teaches us that man is a predatory species that works on the principle of "might is right".

We have aboriginal peoples protesting, and demanding Canada recompense them for the British, before 1867, taking their lands.
They don't argue "your ancestors owe my ancestors", but that "you owe me" for the lands that was taken centuries ago.
On what legal grounds are descendants liable for the actions of ancestors?
Its a scam.

The applause for offshore processing was short lived. From July 2012 to June 2024, the government has spent $12 billion on that policy. In total, approximately 4,183 people have been sent offshore during this time. Offshore processing is costing in excess of $573,000 per person per year.

Cheers, George

It's applauded because it keeps them out, or so we are told.
Britain has paid France £480 million to prevent the boats leaving the coast, that hasn't worked.
Britain also paid Rawanda £240 million to take migrants, to date only one has gone. More MP's went to Rawanda than migrants.
The cost for everyone in Europe is expensive, it's a burden on western countries that cannot be justified.

I'm sure it will not end until both sides take up weapons, then there'll be blood in the streets and all because the governments will not deal with the problem. I can see a futuristic scenario beginning to take shape in Europe.

[Tab]

I understand that Tab but these people are here. Those organisations couldn’t exist in Islamic coutries.

...

I am at a loss. You and Wickerman stating things with such confidence, using your whole chest. Just regurgitating nonsense without even a cursory fact check. It's irresponsible.

Back to Indonesia, the largest majority Muslim country in the world. The one with a democratic secular government you'll remember.

Islam Nusantara - Represents pluralist Islam. Represents tolerance, diversity and a modern understanding of Islam

Liberal Islamic Network - Advocates pluralism, human rights and progressive interpretations of religious texts.

Nahdlatul Ulama - Based in Indonesia with 90 million members worldwide. Promotes religious reform, pluralism and interfaith dialogue.

The rest of your post stating the majority are "no middle ground - conquest - conversion" all demostrably false again.

Beggars belief.

[Tab]

It’s a fact. Being a fundamentalist means that the person believes that every word in their holy book is the literal word of god and so perfect. Not all Christian’s believe this but all Muslims do.

This is demonstrably untrue. Some Muslims believe in the literal interpretation of the Quran, and some don't. Beliefs and interpretations vary widely, just like with Christianity.

Many Muslims consider the context and intent behind the scripture, recognising that some need to be interpreted metaphorically or allegorically.

Check out Sufism, a mystical branch of Islam, as an example of how widely interpretations vary.

Or better yet, go out and spend some time speaking with Muslims.

All the best,
Tab

[GBinOz]

It’s a fact. Being a fundamentalist means that the person believes that every word in their holy book is the literal word of god and so perfect. Not all Christian’s believe this but all Muslims do.

The Christians had their turn with compulsory belief back in the dark ages, with the witch hunts and inquisitions. The tortures visited upon the non-fundamentalists at that time were horrendous. Christianity has evolved past that, and I certainly don't endorse a repeat by another "religion of peace".

[GBinOz]

Happy to see you fall short of self flagellation George.
What was that saying - "The sons shall not bear the guilt of the fathers" - or words to that effect.

There is an astonishing about-face in Europe over this migrant invasion, reality is setting in. Clearly the UK is behind the times with respect to the effects illegal migration is having on their social structure. Whereas European countries, who have been inflicted with this pariah for longer have associated the rapid increase in crime; rape, assaults, and theft, with the influx of illegal migrants.

We see the off-shore processing adopted by Australia is applauded around the world.

Hi Jon,

I was just wondering if the migrant invasion of America by the pilgrims was considered to be illegal? Or the subsequent rape and attempted genocide of the native Americans?
Was Capt Cook legally justified in nominating Australia as being Terra Nullius (land belonging to nobody)? Was the establishment of the penal colonies considered legal or illegal by the owners of the land at the time?

I seems that migrant invaders consider their own invasions to be legal but any subsequent migrant invasion to be illegal. The dichotomy is that I am no more happy about the current migrant invasion than were the previous invadees. History teaches us that the question of who owns the land has to be qualified with another question - "at what time?". History also teaches us that man is a predatory species that works on the principle of "might is right".

The applause for offshore processing was short lived. From July 2012 to June 2024, the government has spent $12 billion on that policy. In total, approximately 4,183 people have been sent offshore during this time. Offshore processing is costing in excess of $573,000 per person per year.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

Where'd you get that idea?

It’s a fact. Being a fundamentalist means that the person believes that every word in their holy book is the literal word of god and so perfect. Not all Christian’s believe this but all Muslims do.

[Ms Diddles]

You have a far more optimistic outlook than I do Tab and I genuinely hope that I’m wrong and that you are right but I think that you are taking a slightly rose-tinted and hopeful view of things. I don’t think for a second that the majority want to integrate. I don’t even think it’s close; in fact I’d say that it’s the tiniest of minorities. There might be a small minority occasionally plucking up the courage to do things like condemn terrorism but that’s not the way that the majority think.

Hi Herlock!

I don't for a minute expect to convince you of this, but in my experience the reality of Muslims in this country is completely at odds with their portrayal in the press.

This was something which very much surprised me when I first started working with migrants many moons ago.

The vast majority of Muslims are peaceful, law abiding citizens who deplore violence and are indeed keen to integrate.

This is absolutely the way the majority think.

When Covid kicked off here in 2020 it was the local mosque that provided a lot of the most needed support in the community.

I was working for a homeless charity the time, and whilst we were scrabbling around trying to access funding and resources, volunteers from the mosque were out delivering food parcels to anyone who needed them (and that was anyone, Muslim, non-Muslim, LGBT community, people with drug and alcohol addictions - they extended their charity and good will to all without discrimination).

Now, I appreciate that this is just one example, but it is pretty typical of my experience with Muslims here.

I simply do not recognise these hoards of violent religious fundamentalists portrayed in the press.

I honestly don't think Tab's optimism is at all misguided.

If you don't believe me, I would urge you to go out, talk to people in the muslim community, interact, ask questions any opportunity you have.

I'd be pretty confident it would allay some of your fears and give you more hope for the future.

[Karl]

But not all Christian’s are fundamentalists. All Muslims are though.

Where'd you get that idea?

[caz]

Surely, it should be obvious to you, and all the rest, that "anyone who is 'different' but doing them no harm", is not the problem.
I have to wonder why people try to confuse the issue by talking about those "who do no harm", when the concern is over those "who do harm"?
Is it because they feel their argument is weak that they have to obfuscate the issue?

Single cubicle washroom/toilet with its own door, is surely the solution for toilets.
But, what about change rooms, that seems to be a huge concern for many women - having a biological male, in a wig & lipstick, loitering?, behind them while they are getting undressed?

You mentioned mental illness, I wasn't going to go that far on here, but if a biological male thinks he is a female, you don't think he has an issue 'upstairs'?

If a person born male has a female inside him waiting to 'come out', they are very unlikely to wish any harm on the females they meet, in a female only space or a mixed one. The biological male in a wig and lipstick because he has evil intentions towards females, will be a straight man faking it.

If you believe all trans women are straight men faking it to gain sexual access to females, you have more of an issue 'downstairs' than trans women have upstairs, and it says a lot about your opinion of straight men in general.

As for abuse coming first, followed by violence, trans women are far more likely to suffer abuse and violence at the hands of their ill-wishers, than they are likely to dish it out.